Why Disagree with the Consensus of Experts?

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varelse1
Kjvav wrote:

 Islam rejected mysticism, seriously?

Super, super seriously.

100% serious.

Which is ironic. Because today, Islam is making the very same mistake, the Western World made in the Dark Ages. Rejecting reason. Embracing mysticism.

And as a result, they wonder why they can't build an atomic bomb, using supercomputers, that we built way back in the 40's. 

Using slide rules.

If Medieval Europe isn't a good enough example for the dangers of Mysticism, then look to the Modern Day Arab world, and all the great technological achievements, they haven't done.

 

varelse1
tbwp10 wrote:
 

Have to disagree with you on this one.  Certainly a common stereotype that everyone seems to repeat, but a false one.  Christianity did not reject reason.  That simply isn't true. Monasteries promoted education and literacy.  The Medieval period produced some of our most famous philosophical thinkers like St. Thomas Aquinas, Anselm, Ockham.  And while Europe did not experience the technological leaps the Islamic world did during this time, it wasn't stagnant but experienced steady progress and advances, such as technological inventions that revolutionized agriculture.

good post, B-pawn .

First i would like to address the point you made on philosophers. Yes, the ones you mentioned certainly were influential. But I believe Sextus Empiricus was light years ahead of any of them. That could be considered an opinion though. So i will move on.

As to the technological innovations you mentioned. Yes, there were some. but nobody in Europe at this time, was building anything like the Romans were building, a thousand years earlier.

Certainly, no cites had an extensive aqueduct system, like Rome did.

And marvels like the Diocletian Palace, the Pantheon, or the Coliseum, were well beyond them.

Kjvav

   And yet , to your point, Rome was absolutely steeped in mysticism 

tbwp10
varelse1 wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
 

Have to disagree with you on this one.  Certainly a common stereotype that everyone seems to repeat, but a false one.  Christianity did not reject reason.  That simply isn't true. Monasteries promoted education and literacy.  The Medieval period produced some of our most famous philosophical thinkers like St. Thomas Aquinas, Anselm, Ockham.  And while Europe did not experience the technological leaps the Islamic world did during this time, it wasn't stagnant but experienced steady progress and advances, such as technological inventions that revolutionized agriculture.

good post, B-pawn .

First i would like to address the point you made on philosophers. Yes, the ones you mentioned certainly were influential. But I believe Sextus Empiricus was light years ahead of any of them. That could be considered an opinion though. So i will move on.

As to the technological innovations you mentioned. Yes, there were some. but nobody in Europe at this time, was building anything like the Romans were building, a thousand years earlier.

Certainly, no cites had an extensive aqueduct system, like Rome did.

And marvels like the Diocletian Palace, the Pantheon, or the Coliseum, were well beyond them.

As usual v1, good, thought-provoking comments.  Yep, this runs far afield from my expertise so I went to preeminent source for accurate historical knowledge that the professionals use.  That's right: Quora (lol!).

Seriously, though, did find interesting Quora post.  Don't know if accurate, seemed so.  Lengthy but worth read.  Very interesting, thorough comparison.  Says Medieval eventually did advance past Rome by Late Medieval, but also talked about difficulties of making accurate comparison on this question.  Let me know what you think:  Were Romans more advanced than Medieval

MindWalk
TruthMuse wrote: <snip>

Actually, no, the bar is very high due to things like that. It does say that demons caused things not all but some. Looking into the things it does say about medical instructions, you will see scripture says things we know to be true today. Some things were not widely known when it was written back then, from washing our hands after handling dead, isolating those with communicable diseases from the healthy population. The current medical knowledge back at that time had bleeding people, and doing all sorts of other things that were once thought were the standard medical practices of the day. Nothing of that sort is in scripture, had anything like that made it into scripture, the whole thing could have been thrown out. The spiritual world is a reality; you can deny it; it does not change the truth of it.

I'm just starting to read through the last several pages of this thread. The bit about the Bible's adjuring the washing of hands caught my eye. Now, I suppose that an awful lot of early physicians were also Christians, and therefore aware of that Scriptural advice; yet, it wasn't until the late 1800's that the washing of hands by physicians became accepted practice, and in fact it was resisted before it was accepted. See

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/handwashing-once-controversial-medical-advice/#:~:text=A%20doctor's%20redemption,regularly%20scrubbing%20up%20before%20surgery.

So, where is it in the Bible, and why do you suppose Christian doctors didn't heed that Godly recommendation?

Kjvav

   There never was a general command for people to wash their hands in the Bible.

the priests were to ceremonially wash their hands in their duties in the temple. The myriad of hand washing rituals referred to in the New Testament by Jesus was a reference to the extrabiblical writings of the Jews, and there were many. But no general command for laymen to wash their hands anywhere in the Bible.

 

varelse1
MindWalk wrote:
TruthMuse wrote: <snip>

Actually, no, the bar is very high due to things like that. It does say that demons caused things not all but some. Looking into the things it does say about medical instructions, you will see scripture says things we know to be true today. Some things were not widely known when it was written back then, from washing our hands after handling dead, isolating those with communicable diseases from the healthy population. The current medical knowledge back at that time had bleeding people, and doing all sorts of other things that were once thought were the standard medical practices of the day. Nothing of that sort is in scripture, had anything like that made it into scripture, the whole thing could have been thrown out. The spiritual world is a reality; you can deny it; it does not change the truth of it.

I'm just starting to read through the last several pages of this thread. The bit about the Bible's adjuring the washing of hands caught my eye. Now, I suppose that an awful lot of early physicians were also Christians, and therefore aware of that Scriptural advice; yet, it wasn't until the late 1800's that the washing of hands by physicians became accepted practice, and in fact it was resisted before it was accepted. See

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/handwashing-once-controversial-medical-advice/#:~:text=A%20doctor's%20redemption,regularly%20scrubbing%20up%20before%20surgery.

So, where is it in the Bible, and why do you suppose Christian doctors didn't heed that Godly recommendation?

Perhaps docyors of the day simply assumed the Bible was a bad place to look for standard medical practices?

TruthMuse
varelse1 wrote:
MindWalk wrote:
TruthMuse wrote: <snip>

Actually, no, the bar is very high due to things like that. It does say that demons caused things not all but some. Looking into the things it does say about medical instructions, you will see scripture says things we know to be true today. Some things were not widely known when it was written back then, from washing our hands after handling dead, isolating those with communicable diseases from the healthy population. The current medical knowledge back at that time had bleeding people, and doing all sorts of other things that were once thought were the standard medical practices of the day. Nothing of that sort is in scripture, had anything like that made it into scripture, the whole thing could have been thrown out. The spiritual world is a reality; you can deny it; it does not change the truth of it.

I'm just starting to read through the last several pages of this thread. The bit about the Bible's adjuring the washing of hands caught my eye. Now, I suppose that an awful lot of early physicians were also Christians, and therefore aware of that Scriptural advice; yet, it wasn't until the late 1800's that the washing of hands by physicians became accepted practice, and in fact it was resisted before it was accepted. See

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/handwashing-once-controversial-medical-advice/#:~:text=A%20doctor's%20redemption,regularly%20scrubbing%20up%20before%20surgery.

So, where is it in the Bible, and why do you suppose Christian doctors didn't heed that Godly recommendation?

Perhaps docyors of the day simply assumed the Bible was a bad place to look for standard medical practices?

 

Maybe not, but doctors, had they paid attention to scripture, may have avoided things like the plague because of bad healthcare practices. Sanitation was a big deal in biblical times (when the OT was being written), long before modern medician caught up. You should read what was common practice when the scripture was written in Egypt and elsewhere and see if you can find some of the disgusting things modern medician of that day called for. Had Moses incorporated any of that day's scholarly advice from Egypt, you could throw out the whole thing.

tbwp10

The Bible is not a guide for modern medicine, and as @Kjvav correctly noted, handwashing in the Bible was ceremonial/ritualistic.

TruthMuse

It is a guide for life that tells them what to do which are healthy practices, it isn't a medical manual, but a life guide.

tbwp10

Mainly spiritual life.  Physical life to some degree in terms of caring for basic needs food, shelter, etc.  Healthy living, not so much.  That's not to say unhealthy practices are taught, just that things like food dietary restrictions were ritualistic/ceremonial and theological in meaning as part of Yahweh's covenant relationship with the nation of ancient Israel that would set Israel apart and mark/identify Israel as Yahweh's.  It's really not a good idea to use the Bible as a guide for "healthy living," unless you want to subscribe to ancient practices like drinking wine for an upset stomach as Paul advised Timothy to do.

Kjvav

   Remember when everyone was hot on “Ezekiel Bread”? Look in the Bible and see what Ezekiel’s bread was actually made of. You’d need a penicillin shot after every slice.

tbwp10

@Kjvav  I'm not familiar with the "Ezekiel bread" fad/craze.  What's it about and how's it made?

Kjvav

Ezekiel 4:9-15 (esp. 12), had to cook it on a poop fire.

varelse1
tbwp10 wrote:

@Kjvav  I'm not familiar with the "Ezekiel bread" fad/craze.  What's it about and how's it made?

TruthMuse
varelse1 wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

@Kjvav  I'm not familiar with the "Ezekiel bread" fad/craze.  What's it about and how's it made?

 

Ezekiel 25: 17

17 I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

tbwp10

That's the recipe for Ezekiel bread?

TruthMuse
tbwp10 wrote:

That's the recipe for Ezekiel bread?

No, but its the correct quote that wasn't done in the movie which was I was responding to. Once again you are attempting to accuse me of something?

tbwp10
TruthMuse wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:

That's the recipe for Ezekiel bread?

No, but its the correct quote that wasn't done in the movie which was I was responding to. Once again you are attempting to accuse me of something?

Lol!  No, I was confused, so I asked a clarifying question

MindWalk
Guineaster wrote:
MindWalk wrote:

Truthmuse, in post 17, wrote (in small part): "we are talking about something there are no experts for, how did the universe and life start."

MindWalk replies: We should carefully distinguish among the questions asked. (1) How did the universe start? (2) How did life start (here on Earth) (3) Might life have started via a process of abiogenesis? (4) Did life on Earth, once it got started, evolve into its present forms over hundreds of millions or billions of years? (5) By what mechanisms did life evolve? 

The answer to (1) is, I think, "Nobody knows." I have my doubts that anyone ever will know. The answer to (2) is, "We do not, at present, know, and we might never know, as there might turn out to be more than one possibility that we have no way of deciding between." The answer to (3) is, "We do not know. Scientists are working on figuring out how it might have happened, but so far, although they have ideas, they do not know how it might have happened in sufficient detail for us to say that it pretty definitely happened." The answer to (4) is, "Overwhelmingly probably yes. The evidence is so strong that it would practically require God to have deliberately deceived the best human investigators for it not to have happened." The answer to (5) is, "We know some of the mechanisms pretty well; others, we're just learning about; but although evolutionary theory might require emendations, it seems pretty well established in its broad outlines and even in many details." 

It's especially important to distinguish between *origin* questions (the origin of the universe; the origin of life) and *evolutionary* questions (what's happened to life since it came into being). They're not the same questions, and they don't have the same answers.

Jesus, my friend. He told us how he created the earth.  Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

That's not telling us *how* he did it. That's only telling us *that* he did it. If he exists.