A Copy Of A Copy Of A...

in the long and involved thread about the Chess Bazaar's Crimson Dubrovnik set, one poster shared a number of links showing different companies offering sets of the same design at much different prices.

Frank Camaratta, who began The House of Staunton posted a bit later that all those designs were originally his and he has copyrights on them.  He said that there are many companies that are copying his sets and selling them as a cheaper option, both quality and price.

This got me to wondering.  I do know that a good number of the sets Frank had made in the late 1990's to the mid 2000's are reproductions of much older sets.  In fact their advertising says that a certain set is from a specific year Staunton design.  Some of the sets, like the Liberty Series set is a direct remake of the original one from the 1930is time.  Someone even showed on this forum a detailed sketch of a set that Frank had made and called his Renegade Series.

One thing about Frank is that he made sure the woods used were of the best available quality.  He also had strict quality standards that his manufacturers had to and still have to maintain in order for The House of Staunton to buy it from them and market as retail.  While I haven't actually played with some of these original sets, I wouldn't be surprised and even expect the products HOS sells to be of a better quality than some of the originals.

But, a good number of those sets are reproductions or copies of originals.  I'll give some room that a few of the sets are totally original in design, but the majority are reproductions.

Frank did get copyright on a good number of designs.  I remember back in the early 2000's some Indian company was selling knock-offs and Frank somehow legally had that stopped.

Alas today, the designs are being copied to the point that CB doesn't even change the name of the set.  And the names I'm thinking of were original HOS names.  Yes, they are all copies of copies.

Note that when it comes to Dubrovnik sets the only claim Frank can make is that the HOS sets are of better quality, not originals that the others are copying.  The same is true of their Championship Series set which is a copy of the Timeless set of the DGT eboards.  I know because that's what he told me when they were being made.

I am not slamming any company in this post.  I am just pointing out what is going on from what I can see.

When I am looking for a specific design set, I automatically look at HOS and then The Chess House, and then Your Move Chess and Games, and then The Chess Store and then Chess Bazaar.  I'll look at each of their designs along with the woods offered.  I'll then look at the dimensions of the set to see how balanced it looks.  I'll then look at the weight of the set.

Noj is an entity all alone in their category.  They are pretty much the only non-Indian Chess set producer.  Their quality is spectacular but their wood choices are limited.  And their price is high.

I confess that I still look at HOS first because their quality is also spectacular.  And they do have more wood choices in a lot of their sets.  Their prices are not at the low end and they are a little high but not too high for a lot of their products.  I know from experience that when I order a Chess Set from HOS it will be a winner.

Chess Bazaar has received a lot of positive reviews on this forum from people that know their chess sets and have bought a lot from most everywhere.  I look forward to buying a set from them sometime.  I do want to have the wood that I prefer.  Yes, they are copiers of copies and they apparently don't try to hide that fact.

I would like to hear from people that have sets from CB as well as HOS that are comparable in design and see how they compare in quality and price.

You see, the first is a copy of a copy and the second is the original copy.

I agree with many of the points in your post, but I don't think Noj is the only non-Indian manufacturer left. I believe Chavet still produce their sets in France, as do Wegiel in Poland. There are still small manufacturers in Germany as well, such as Weible. And I believe Indajesa is still producing sets in Spain. And that's only manufacturers of wooden Staunton sets - there's many more when you go into theme sets like ANRI.

Well, I half expected to be corrected on this point. I do not see these other companies having competitive products on the market, but I must not be looking in the right places.

it's certainly true that none of them have any meaningful presence in North America.

Sunrise Handicrafts in Poland manufacture their own considerable line of largely decorative but still mostly all staunton-ish design chess sets and boards. They also make their own boxes for chessmen.

Orlov manufactures their own chess sets and is said to be the only manufacturer of chess sets in the entire Russian "federation".

A more direct question I should ask is how do the 3 Dubrovnik sets from Noj, HOS and CB compare?  And I do not want someone to tell me their opinion of the pictures and descriptions. I want to know the in-hand comparison.

One is much more expensive than the other two, close to 3 times the cost.  Is it 3 times better in quality?

how do the other 2 compare in quality, in hand?

Sunrise Handicrafts' "Staunton" chess sets, which are probably the world's cheapest wooden chess sets (even including an optional wooden box) are sold by very many European retailers and quite a fair number of North American sellers, including Amazon.com.

In my correspondence with them, Orlov appeared to be quite uninterested in selling their products outside of Russia.

Bought a 4" Colectors HOS set last week in Rosewood/Boxwood. Had two cracked bases, set was made on 3/15/2010, 5 years on the shelf.  Did the 5 years sitting lead to two cracked bases I have no idea. Should the peices have been checked over before shipping?  I can relate that they probably sell too many sets to take each piece and check them for base cracks so we customers do, not that many seem to mind.  I had to send in the two pieces and paid $5.25 non reimbursable postage to get the two pieces back to them and then when they get them they send me two other pieces I hope that come from the same set without base cracks. For one I do not want to pay a second postage to send back the replacement pieces. One base crack was very obvious on the King.  So I will wait abother week for them to receive my pieces then mail them back, I hope not longer than a week. Therefore it will take about 2 weeks to get a complete set of what I ordered.  Still no problem for me. The rosewood in the Collectors set was much different than the rosewood in the liberty set. Liberty set was very dark and the Collectors set was varying striped rosewood with obe Queen much darker than the rest but since you get two Queens I don't mind once again.

The above is 100% accurate. Every company no matter who it is sends you pieces that have base cracks,  which did not happen in the mail.

No company is without fault making chess sets since they do not have control over what is being made 8K miles away. You would think these sets are scrutinized when received from India but apparnately when you seel too many sets the quality control gets a little lacking.   All the US companies can do is call and say how the sets are getting a bit out of control etc. 

I was super impressed with the HOS Liberty Set and then not so much with the HOS 4" Collectors Set. The Liberty set I think was sitting around for only 3 years and like I Said the Collectors set for 5 years.  Surprisingly they had a club set for $35 1/2 price and it came through perfectly, I use the set everyday and am 100% satisfied just teh way it came. This is a very fair evaluation.

Chess Bazaar I have had a chipped collar on the bishop of the 4" Dubrovnik set and of course the very poor stain job.  I enjoyed rhe 1849 set very much and its massive and worth every penny of $349.00  By the way I did not have to send the bishop back and the new bishop arrived in 3 days just as fast if not faster than a reseller right here in the USA. So it did not cost me a penny more. 

Chess Cafe, I bought a 4 1/8" Titan set on sale for $39.02 which is just unreal for that price. I did have a chip out of the sheesham Queen and they replaced it. Communication isn't the best at chess cafe but in the end they got the job done. They run a chess school and are constantly busy with it, I can understand, so when you order or have a problem just be a bit patient. 

My conclusion is you become the quality control, seems this is the same across the board.  Wis h it wasn't that way but that seems to be the norm. I would be afraid to order any new set from any company as a gift sent to my grandson without me checking over the set first, it shouldn't be that way. I should be able to order any set in confidence and know that my receipient received a 100% set without damage. I do releize natural wood graisn vary with design and color that is the beauty of wood and that is NOT in question here, just the cracked and defects.

I fondly remember when Frank Camaratta inspected and packed the sets he sold and sent out himself, and then only one other person.  The pieces were packed in cotton that still had some seeds in it.

Mike, we did kind of warn you about the Collector set not being as robust as the Marshall.  Of course the cracks are bad.

The reason they want the damaged pieces back is to best match the color and grain of the pieces they send to you.  When I received my Championship series set in Rosewood there was a chip in the collar of one of the Rosewood Queens.  I called and they had the lot number printed on the box.  I told them the number and they sent me the replacement piece right away. 

With that Collector Series set made so long ago, I am sure they simply want the replacement pieces to best match the set you received. 

And really, it only cost you $5.25 to send them the defective pieces.  When you stop to consider the set retailed for $629 and you got it for $250, another $5.25 really is nothing.

I own a Chess Bazaar 3.6" Shesham and Boxwood Dubrovnik chess set and a House of Staunton 3.75" stained Boxwood Dubrovnik chess set, and have corresponded with Noj about their chess sets.

In his correspondence with me, Nowak Gregor of Noj, gave me the weights of a number of Noj chess sets that I inquired about. According to him, they all weigh in at what I would consider to be rather a light weight for chess sets of their size, with the 91mm (3.58") Dubrovnik II weighing "0.9-1.0kg" (31.75-35.27 ounces avoirdupois) for the 32 chessmen without extra queens or box.

I actually have both the Chess Bazaar 3.6" Boxwood and Sheshem and the House of Staunton 3.75" stained Boxwood chess sets in front of me as I write this.

The Chess Bazaar 3.6" Boxwood and Shesham Dubrovnik chess set has a King that measures 3-5/8" in height with a base that measures 1-9/16" in width. The total weight of the 32 chessmen without the extra queens is 41.1 oz.. The average weights of the individual chessmen are as follows:

King - 2.05 oz.

Queen - 1.925 oz.

Bishop - 1.35 oz.

Knight - 1.45 oz.

Rook -1.4 oz.

Pawn - 1.01875 oz.

The total weight of the 17 light chessmen, including the extra queen, is 22.6 oz..

The total weight of the 17 dark chessmen, including the extra queen, is 22.2 oz..

The Chess Bazaar 3.6" Boxwood and Shesham Dubrovnik chessmen are very uniformly weighted, with all of the pieces of each type weighing the same,to the nearest 1/10 ounce, with the exception of the Kings, where the White King weighs 0.1 oz. more than its Black counterpart, and the Queens, where the two White Queens, together, weigh 0.3 oz. more than the pair of Black Queens.

The House of Staunton 3.75" stained Boxwood Dubrovnik chess set has a King that measures 3-13/16" in height with a base that measures 1-3/4" in width. The total weight of the 32 chessmen without the extra queens is 61.8 oz.. The average weights of the individual chessmen are as follows:

King - 3.3 oz.

Queen - 2.925 oz.

Bishop - 2.225 oz.

Knight - 2.175 oz.

Rook - 2.55 oz.

Pawn - 1.275 oz.

The total weight of the 17 light chessmen, including the extra queen is 33.4 oz..

The total weight of the 17 dark chessmen, including the extra queen is 31.9 oz..

The House of Staunton 3.75" stained Dubrovnik chess set is less evenly weighted than the Chess Bazaar 3.6" Boxwood and Shesham chess set, with the differences in the weight of different Kings, Queens, Knights and Rooks, all exceeding 0.1 oz.. The largest differences in the weights of individual pieces, percentagewise, are among the four Knights, with the two White Knights weighing 2.4 and 2.2 oz. and the two Black Knights weighing 2.1 and 2.0 oz., and a Black Rook weighing 2.4 oz. in contrast to the same 2.6 oz. of each of the other Rooks.

The wood of the light Chess Bazaar Dubrovnik chessmen has a delicate grain that is more distinct than that of the wood of the House of Staunton light Dubrovnik chessmen, and it is a slightly darker color. The wood of the dark Chess Bazaar chessmen has a more distinct grain than that of their light counterparts, and is on the darker end of the spectrum of colors that I have seen ascribed to "Shesham". No wood grain is discernible at all, to my eyes, on the House of Staunton dark chessmen. Both the light and the dark Chess Bazaar Dubrovnik chessmen appear to be about as reflective of light. The light House of Staunton Dubrovnik chessmen may be slightly more relective than their Chess Bazaar counterparts, while the dark House of Staunton chessmen are more reflective than the light ones.

The felt of the House of Staunton Dubrovnik chess set is a slightly darker shade of green and is a little smoother or softer in texture than the felt of the Chess Bazaar Dubrovnik chess set.

There are no loose weights, loose or overglued felts, tool marks, or anything else that I might even wildly consider to be a defect in either the Chess Bazaar or the House of Staunton Dubrovnik chess sets.

Both my Chess Bazaar and House of Staunton Dubrovnik chess sets look quite like their photographs on the websites of their respective sellers, as well as the photographs of them that have been posted in this discussion forum.

I didn't get what you meant buy "robust". I took that to mean they felt "sturdier" when played say at blitz.  But I was told the beauty of the Collector's set far surpassed the Marshall.  The cracked bases could aslo happen in the Marshall set vs. the Collectors set shoulld be the same high quality.  he Collectors set is what Frank made his company on. 

I don't use anything that is colectable as this set in a blitz game. The shortest games I enjoy playing that are timed are 30d5.  I am an old timer and do not like anything faster that that. I like to relax and exercise the brain while playing and just enjoy myself.

That is excellent Jackie.

Which of the 2 sets do you prefer to play with?

I have noticed the Noj Dubrovnik is definitely lighter in weight than most of my other sets.  What I find I like best about this set is the fine details of how it is finished.  I also really like the European Walnut in the dark pieces.  The Knights are done to a great detail and finish and definitely has a very nice, distinctive look.  Yes, this set shows fine workmanship and quality woods no matter the lighter weight.

When I bought my Noj Dubrovnik it was the only Dubrovnik design on the market.  I know that I would not buy one today if I did not already own one.  The Sheesham CB version is probably what I would buy instead.  Of course I would really prefer a Rosewood version in either the HOS or CB versions.

I have never purchased a anything from the following sellers, that arrived with any defects or damage:

The Chess Piece (2 wood sets)

The Chess House (7 wood and a number of plastic sets) and each of the wooden sets that I bought from The Chess House arrived with a handsigned slip in its box that said that it had been inspected by a particular individual at The Chess House

Sunrise Handicrafts (a lot of wooden boxes)

Wholesale Chess (4 wood and a number of plastic sets)

Yipperoo (2 wood sets)

Chess sets that I have purchased from other sellers have fared worse.

Amazon (1 wood set refunded immediately upon return at no cost with package-pickup at my door, with no questions asked.

Chess Bazaar (over two dozen wood sets - about 15% have arrived with some sort of damage or defect, usually broken pawns, all have been quickly replaced at no cost)

Chess Cafe (10 wood and a couple of plastic sets - one damaged piece immediately replaced at no cost with no questions asked)

The Chess Store (9 wood sets, a few wood boards, some vinyl boards, and a couple of plastic sets - one damaged pawn in each of two wood sets, replaced immediately at no cost and with no questions asked)

The House of Chess (6 wood sets and some boxes - one damaged piece replaced at no cost with no questions asked, after two e-mails)

The House of Staunton (9 wood sets, a few plastic sets, a couple of wood boards, a couple of vinyl boards, a couple of clock bags, and a couple of books - one broken plastic pawn, replaced immediately and at no cost, 4 damaged or defective wooden sets, with broken pawns and pieces, including knights mismatched and broken/unglued in two pieces, all replaced at no cost but usually after some discussion and sometimes considerable delay and, in several cases, request for photographs or return of the entire chess set)

In the case of all of the damaged wooden sets that I received, if it was a case of a bit of a chessman being broken off, the broken off bit was never inside the package, which means that the chessman must have been damaged prior to being wrapped, packed, and shipped.

The only thing I gotta say is: tl;dr.

I would never play anything resembling a fast game with a wooden set. I did that once with the first wooden set that I ever had and, regrettably, a pawn fell off the table outdoors and the bit that broke off was no where to be found.

I would also be loathe to use an expensive or difficult-to-replace wooden chess set for any game with anyone whom I did not personally know to be someone who treated the sets that they used to play with a fair amount of dignity.

Particularly cheap and sturdy plastic chess sets, of course, should be reserved for unavoidable games with known time-pressure addicts, piece-slammers, sore losers, and other sundry boors.

The Noj Dubrovnik chess set is obviously the currently available chess set that most closely resembles the various circa 1960s Yugoslavian "Dubrovnik" chess sets, both in design and coloring, in its maple/walnut version. It, indeed, appears to be well nigh identical to Bobby Fischer's set that can be seen in the videos and photographs of him, analyzing at home, playing blitz with Lewis Cohen at Grossinger's, and with children in a park (in California?) during the early 1970s. If one wants "Bobby Fischer's favorite chess set", the Noj is the one to get, (barring acquiring the one Bobby actually owned). My main problem with the Noj set is its somewhat light weight for its size, given that I personally like chessmen with a bit of heft to them. I also will not pay any price for anything, and considering the materials that the Noj set is made from, and the fact that the design of its knights is not very intricate and, henceforth, time-consuming to carve, I do find it to be more than a little excessively high-priced for my taste.

As to the design of the three sets, regardless of whether they look like any "historical" set, or not, personally, overall I like the House of Staunton Dubrovnik chessmen best, primarily because I favor slimmer Kings, Queens, Bishops and Pawns, except that I dislike the large filial of the King, and and the King being so much larger than the other chessmen.

I like the considerably heavier weight of the HoS set, but dislike the uneven weighting of the Knights, which I noticed before weighing them, and even though I would have liked a weight of at least 44 ounces and preferrably about 50 ounces, the CB set is heavy enough for me to use.

As I markedly prefer the coloration and graining of the wood of the CB set, as I can see the detail of the pieces, and just see the actual pieces and pawns better on a board, (and it looks an awful lot like the colors of Bobby's set), it's the Chess Bazaar set that I anticipate will get the most use with other players, while the HoS set will probably find its occasional use in a well-lit room at home.

My ideal non-historical "Dubrovnik" chess set would be with dark shesham to medium-dark rosewood colored "black" chessmen, be of the HoS design and proportions, with a King 3-5/8" in height, except that the Kings would have Noj proportioned filials and have the CB height proportion to the other chessmen, and the Knights would be the Noj both Dubrovnik I and II designs (why not have extra knights, as they're possibly the most often underpromoted piece?), while the Rooks would be as tall as the Knights with bases as wide as the Queen's while having a slight uplwards taper, and the Pawns would be halfway between the Noj Dubrovnik I and II designs. All the chessmen of the same type would weigh exactly the same, the weights of the chessmen would be proportioned as in the CB set, and the set of 32 chessmen would overall weigh 53 ounces, and would include extra Queens and extra Knights (of different design),

Eyechess...here's a Dubrovie knight comparison I've posted before. Ultimately, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My choice was the Noj D-II for various reasons with $$$ not being a consideration. First, I wanted the Dubrovie set to be as close to Fischer's fav set that I could find. I also considered the area they are made in being another positive. I also wanted the lighter weight. From what I saw in the Fischer video the original pieces he used were likely unweighted as one can see when he moves the pieces. (Video Here for those that have not seen it  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S3lKm9gw3I ) I also wanted the woods used and coloring to be a close match as in the Noj maple and walnut. There were also other considerations as well. Not knocking any other Dubrovie sets as my choice may not be that of others. For me, it was simply the one I liked the most that met my standards I was looking for.

Eyechess...To continue... As far as HOS older sets I must say that one of my Staunton favs is that in which Frank did Back in the 90's. I believe it was Franks first limited edition at the time. Yes, the pieces have a few aging hairline base cracks here and there and the queens crown points have some battle scares, but who cares, I love the battle scares and natural aging actually and don't give them much thought as it plays like a dream and it's a true triple weight. This set has been my favorite daily player for almost the last 20 years. The ebony as well as the boxwood was of the highest quality back then and the carvings were just superb as one could expect. Frank knew how to build his Stauntons that's for sure !

Amen to that Robb.

I just finished playing a 4 round G/80 event over one month of Monday evenings with the Players Series Set that also was one of the first that Frank had created.  It plays splendidly, and at least 6 others agreed by their comments and compliments to me about that set at the meeting over those 4 nights.

I just received my Marshall Series set that Frank came out with either in the very late 90's or early 2000 time and it plays very well, too.  I am gearing up with a few 2.5" boards now because this set really looks and plays better on that size.

When I received my first 2.5" board made of Corian, I pulled out my Morphy Series in Blood Rosewood.  I have kept that set "quiet" with a 2.375" board.  I just didn't feel motivated to play with it.  Well, I've got news for you, after putting that set on the new board, I now plan on taking it to club when he have the G/90 and longer time controls.

That Morphy Series is yet another Frank Camaratta creation and it is really a nice, nice set.  Without a doubt it is the nicest set I own and that compares it to both Noj sets, Dubrovnik II and BCE with stainless bottoms along with all my other, ahem, 9 HOS sets.

I think that Robb and others that know and have nice sets will agree that Frank and his HOS sets are of the best quality, bar none.

AFAIK Noj is the only manufacturer that has actually had access to the original Dubrovnik chessmen when designing their replicas. As has been said the originals where all unweighted and this is probably the reason for the relatively low weight of the Noj replicas. Thats said, I would bet that Noj could make them heavier if a customer requested it.

As for the Dubrovnik knight being simple to carve, Noj mentioned in the CB crimson stain thread that it takes 8 hours to carve 4 knights and that the complete set of chessmen takes at least 25 hours to manufacture.

I think it stands to reason that if the Dubrovnik knight would be easy to carve and replicate, all the Made in India sets would more closely resemble the originals.