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Who's Better?: Bobby Fischer, Garry Kasparov, or Magnus Carlsen
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Johannian07 wrote:
That sad moment when bro leaves Paul Morphy out of the question.
In terms of pure genius, I think it's Paul Morphy or Bobby Fischer.
pure American bias
Alchessblitz wrote:
IMO
a : It seems to me that Bobby Fischer almost always plays the same openings with an attacking style so against Magnus Carlsen he will have no chance because Carlsen will work the positions with Stockfish who will find all the solutions and Carlsen will develop defense patterns which will make Bobby Fischer's game ineffective.
b : The real question is against Kasparov because he's played Junior 8 and through these games he's shown that he's very combative and strong because he didn't really play anti-bot strategies (something that works against a bot anomaly but against even a weak GM probably doesn't work and increases the probability of losing), he didn't lost all his games and Junior 8 even if is not strictly speaking stronger than Frit 8 (program who played against Kramnik) I think is much more difficult and formidable against a human (because Junior 8 has "a way of playing making giving notably more difficult to anticipate his moves").
In the end I think it would still be Carlsen who wins because Kasparov plays the same openings almost all the time being "too rigid" (for example against Kramnik in a world championship he found no solution against the Berlin Defense and "Grunfeld Defense with Black is not a good choice against Kramnik" but I think "with his rigid way of playing chess he finds himself a little forced to have to play the same openings even if they are doomed to chess against Kramnik").
The question is not who would win in a one v one matchup, obviously Carlsen would win against both Bobby and Kasparov as Magnus has much more modern theory, openings and ideas. This is sort of a goat debate thread where their respective achievements are compared.
I would say Garry because he gave up chess for not having an opponent that can beat him.
Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:
Johannian07 wrote:
That sad moment when bro leaves Paul Morphy out of the question.
In terms of pure genius, I think it's Paul Morphy or Bobby Fischer.
pure American bias
Lol, then I guess the vast majority of the chess world has American bias, because almost every list of the top chess geniuses I've seen has Morphy, Fischer, and Carlsen in the top three. Sometimes Carlsen's top, sometimes Fischer, sometimes Morphy, but it's nearly always those three taking up the top 3 spots. So, be my guest and argue with the chess experts, my friend. Because I'm only taking what they say.
Johannian07 wrote:
Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:
Johannian07 wrote:
That sad moment when bro leaves Paul Morphy out of the question.
In terms of pure genius, I think it's Paul Morphy or Bobby Fischer.
pure American bias
Lol, then I guess the vast majority of the chess world has American bias, because almost every list of the top chess geniuses I've seen has Morphy, Fischer, and Carlsen in the top three.
That's just not true about Morphy. I'm not sure how almost every list you've seen has Morphy as one of the "top chess geniuses." The three players that are most commonly regarded as the greatest players of all time are Fischer, Kasparov and Carlsen.
Take this survey: Who do you consider the greatest chess player of all time? - Surveys - Chess.com
Carlsen is voted for by far the most, then Kasparov and Fischer with close to the same amount of votes, and then a huge leap down to Morphy and Anand, with almost the same amount of votes. I would bet that if Karpov was included in the survey, he would be right up there with Anand and Morphy (probably Tal as well based on what I've seen in the chess.com community, although I think he's less deserving than Karpov for that).
Also, if you look up "best chess players of all time ranked,' you'll find the most of the articles that pop up will not put Morphy as one of the big three. Here's a few of the first ones that pop up when I look that up:
The 10 Best Chess Players Of All Time - Chess.com. Notice how Morphy is an honorable mention, and the top three are Fischer, Carlsen and Kasparov.
The 12 Greatest Chess Players of All Time - Chessable Blog. The top 12 aren't listed in a specific order, but Morphy is, yet again, an honorable mention.
Hall of Fame | The 50 Greatest Chess Players of All Time - Chess Lessons - Chess.com. This is a set of lessons reviewing games of the top 50 players of all time. They put Morphy as 10th, Fischer as third, Carlsen as second, and Kasparov as first.
12 Greatest Chess Players of All Time (2023) | Amphy Blog. First is Kasparov, second is Carlsen, third is Fischer. Morphy not mentioned.
Johannian07 wrote:
Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:
Johannian07 wrote:
That sad moment when bro leaves Paul Morphy out of the question.
In terms of pure genius, I think it's Paul Morphy or Bobby Fischer.
pure American bias
So, be my guest and argue with the chess experts, my friend. Because I'm only taking what they say.
Also, what "chess experts" are these? Why do the people you're reading from have any more credibility than anyone else?
Agreed about the "Greatest" chess players in history. Morphy would never be up there, just simply because he lived in a time when there was no World Championship, no prestigious tournaments, and nobody of any real chess skill was his contemporary. This is why I was very careful to make sure I said "Chess Geniuses". Genius has to do with your own innovation in the game, and the brilliant insights you had. Morphy was playing a type of chess way ahead of his time; the moves he was playing, along with the openings, were confirmed, centuries later, to actually be theoretical playing. And of course, he lived in a time when there was no theory being studied.
And for one, Jeremy Silman (highly-praised and very well-known chess tutor and International Master) believes Paul Morphy is 2nd on the "Greatest Chess Geniuses in History" list. Fischer is first for him. If you want further examples, go look up lists of chess geniuses on Google, and you'll find Morphy amongst the top of most of them.
Happy Holidays!
I would say Garry because he gave up chess for not having an opponent that can beat him. Kramnik could.
Bobby did something deemed to be impossible, defeat the USSR Armada, alone. He is unique and the best player. Only talking about chess, not his madness later descent.
trimalo wrote:
Bobby Fisher did the impossible, that is defeating the USSR armada, alone
Wholly agreed!
Gary Kasparov for absolutely sure...Besides, he was the hero of my childhood...and had to take enormous pressure in the games vs. Karpov.
Winning an open with all the best players in the world, where the field usually has higher winning odds than the top seed, is really impressive. Winning four of these opens in a row, as Magnus just did, shows that he is still in a class of his own.
How do you play chess 960 i will love to know
If you mean at blitz Magnus. At classical probably Kasparov.
They were all the best at their time. Circumstances change over time so one cannot compare.
"organize a tournament" lmao
Magnus
Why a tournament?lol
Bobby Fischer since he did the impossible, defeat the Russian invincible armada and this alone.