A Copy Of A Copy Of A...

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JackieMatra

Might not The House of Staunton, etc., and their Indian associates be interested in producing their own designs and not only slavishly copying other designs? Are the Noj Dubrovnik I and II Knights really more intricate than the HoS Dubrovnik Knight?

Eyechess

Well in this case they are all copies, aren't they?

Frank had a number of sets made for HOS that were copies of earlier designs.  He did have some individual things on a number of these sets, making them the HOS classic look, but that notwithstanding they all are pretty much copies in one regard or another.

The final product was one that was not seen on the new chess set market for a high number of years in pretty much all the cases.  And the prices were less than Jaques sets.  So they were available to us, the masses.

I have seen Frank produce some of his own designs.  The Best Chessmen Ever is also an original design from Jonas and made at Noj.   

The Dubrovnik sets are all copies and none are made by the original manufacturer.  Noj openly states this on their web site.  In fact the whole "game" is to make a set that is identical to either Bobby Fischer's favorite one or the original 1950 version.  You see, even Bobby was playing with and loved a copy.  However, Noj was the first to come out with the Dubrovnik in recent history.  They also have put a lot of attention and energy to making their products of the highest quality for a chess set.  I do know that HOS also took an original set and had their craftsmen duplicate it, well sort of duplicate, to arrive at the product they now sell.  In this they are copiers of copiers (if they used the later Dubrovnik/Fischer favorite set), not copiers of copiers of copiers.

We see a few individuals with independence of thought to come up with their own designs.  Frank Camaratta and Jonas are 2 contemporary examples that come right to mind.  Both have created their own design sets of which nothing just like that design existed before.

When he started his company, Frank took Chess set designs from 1849 to the 1940's or so and had sets recreated.  Being an antique chess set collector and expert he had sets and sketches enough where he could have duplicate designs made.  What Frank did was to maintain or be true to the design and still add his own creative and technical touches to these sets, making them a Frank Camaratta creation.  Talk with a few like Frank Helwig, Robb_Chess, and a number of others who have owned and played with Frank's original reproductions.  You will hear that the sets are exquisite in how they play in the hand as well as look and feel.  While I have never played with one of these antiques, I would bet just a little bit of money that Frank's sets feel and/or play better than the originals.  So, I have to tell you that Frank Camaratta is not one who ever slavishly copied any design.  He was creatively aware at all times of what he was doing.

Sure, we can look at today's retailers and see lookalike sets on many different sites and by many different manufacturers.  They are truly the slavish copiers.

I know that many people on this forum like and respect Vik and his Chess Bazaar.  Heck, he has the audacity, yes audacity, to copy not only the design of the pieces but he also copies the exact name of the set that Frank and The House of Staunton originated.  As an example look at the Zagreb set.  If anyone is a slavish copier it is this company/fellow.  Oh, I know that this company/person is not alone in this.  Look at The House of Chess and a few other India based companies.  They are knocking off copies left and right.

JackieMatra

I have seen many chess sets that are very similar to one another, however, I have only seen two that appear to be absolutely identical. Chess Bazaar had been the only retailer offering one particular design, for quite a few years, when a couple of weeks ago:

The House of Staunton "introduced" this "new" "Captain Cook" style chess set: http://www.houseofstaunton.com/chess-pieces/wooden-chess-pieces/english-circa-1800-series-chess-pieces.html   http://www.chessbazaar.com/the-spire-series-weighted-handcarved-chess-pieces-in-ebony-box-wood-4-6-king.html

Let's not always just pick on the Indians, okay?

Eyechess

Well, I just pulled the trigger and ordered a red stained Dubrovnik II from Noj, a bona fide copy of a copy.

TundraMike

Enjoy it Ron, that is what this hobby is all about.  I do not knock anyones chess sets on here.  We were only discussing problems etc. and no company is without faults.  Why some have to go out of their way to knock CB I have no idea. They supply a good product for a decent price.  

If buying the highest price item was the only alternative in life many would have to go without. It's like saying if you can't own a Bentley then you should not buy yourself a Ford. Makes no sense does it.  I enjoy my 1849 set and 1870 set from CB very much.  And the Crimson Dubrovnik I can live with and might even have a solution soon.  Its a georgeous set with bigger bases than they came out with originally and 5 parapets  A very good value for the dollar. 

But then I enjoy my all my sets from HOS,CB,HOC and whoever I will deal with in the future.  

htdavidht

For me the NOJ Dubrovnik is not just about the price tag, or any other thing.

I think this is the first time I comment this:

Since the first time I saw this design I though the horse was wearing a helmet. CB abd HOS try hard to make a rustic head wit ha pronounce curve on the neck, none of them give me ilusion that the horse is wearing a helmet.

I just think it is a way too cool idea and so far I only see it in NOJ.

Maybe I don't need a better set, maybe I need a better imagination, lol.

burke3gd

wiscmike, no one has gone out of their way to knock another company as you did Noj. And for no other reason than that you think their chessmen are too expensive for you. There has never been a single quality or customer service related complaint against them (quite the contrary I would say) and still you attacked them calling them greedy and overpriced. Get off your high horse and drop the hypocracy.

ganz_unten

Hello,

Very interesting post. My apologies if my comment is a bit out of topic now.

I have read that several of you think that Noj is maybe the only non-indian producer. But I want to claim for the ones in my country.

 

I think most of the countries still have chess men producers, but they are not so well known or maybe they are not so Internet oriented.

Maybe, because it is a traditional business.

Also, their pieces have nearly dissapeared from championships because they have not adapted them to the DGT boards.

 

For example, in my country, Spain, the shops sell the more traditional set in Spain.

It is a desing from an old producer called indajesa, that now is managed by mora-vivaf (http://www.mora-viraf.com/ajedrez/).

 

You have not heard about them, but nothing to envy (IMHO) in quality to "rechapados ferrer" , which is another spanish producer.

 

These pieces can be bought in almost every chess store and you can find them also in the internet:

I  have many of this set, 7, in several colors and woods, also in plastic.

The standard design is like this:

http://www.ajedrez-webstore.es/fichas/45-ajedrez-staunton-fs6rn.html

It is not weighted, no extra queens, but I have about 25-30 sets in total and he indajesa model is still my favourite to casual play and analysis.

 

Even, there are some historical variations, as the Karpov-kasparov set from the Sevilla World Championship.

http://www.tenorama.com/sites/default/files/foto/kasparov3.jpg

http://www.ajedrez-webstore.es/fichas/60-ajedrez-sevilla.html

 

Here in Spain, a plastic version of the above floods the market and is what you find in every chess club or small championship without DGT boards. 

IMHO, it is also the best plastic set to play with.

 

http://www.chessajedrez.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Sabiote.jpg (second by the left is David Anton Guijarro 2673 in blitz)

http://www.reinoajedrez.com/tienda/chess-pieces-600gr-p-225.html

 

And you can see it even in the analysis room of the big tournaments:

 

http://estaticos03.marca.com/imagenes/2009/12/15/mas_deportes/ajedrez/1260904459_0.jpg

 

So, at the end, I could expect to find a very similar scenario in almost all european country, with some small producers that sell also great and top quality chess pieces.

 

Kind regards

htdavidht

szociofoto,

I know what you are talking about, When I was visiting Ecuador, I was able to find locally carved wooden chess sets by the dozen. Some of this sets where of higth quality.

Unfortunaly collectors tent to disregard this artisan deals, and go for the "brands" whaever that means.

A set is not as valuable if you can't link it with some famouse someone. Or some Tournament or something. Many of the sets on the market out there are just repros of older sucessfull designs, very few are new designs and from those there will be a handfull that will stand the test of time.

I apreciate you show this links I have just barely see trough one of them I will just go ahead and see what else is there.

burke3gd

Very interesting szociofoto. Thanks for the thorough rundown and links!

FrankHelwig

I own a Indajesa Europa - one of my favorite playing sets!

9kick9
FrankHelwig wrote:

I own a Indajesa Europa - one of my favorite playing sets!

Link or pics please.! Thanks.!!

ganz_unten

I own an europa too. The set is great, but not weighted and the base is a bit thin, so in blitz the pieces literaly fly over the board.

The traditional one is a bit broader in the base and a bit more stable. 

Anyway the Europa knights are one of the most beautiful knights for me.

 

http://www.ajedrez-webstore.es/17-chessmen-europe

burke3gd

That knight reminds me a little bit of the Pentagram World Championship knight. Too bad there are no other pictures of the pieces, it would be nice to see it from the front. Also the rook looks a bit weak, otherwise a nice set.

FrankHelwig
9kick9 wrote:
FrankHelwig wrote:

I own a Indajesa Europa - one of my favorite playing sets!

Link or pics please.! Thanks.!!

as requested:

The set resembles the old Chavet sets, including the knight design. 

ganz_unten

The set is very similar to a lardy one, but with a more beautiful knight.

I have one commemorative lardy from the chess olimpic games in the seventies and the design is quite similar, but the knight that is different.

Here in Spain it is called "europa", but maybe it should be "france" staunton ;)