Design and Manufacturing of chess sets

Sort:
htdavidht

rcmacmillan:

"I own both an aluminum and a plastic Lamy Safari, as well as several Mont Blancs. If you have never experienced the difference between a steel nib, no matter how smooth, and an 18K gold nib, of course you won't understand why the Mont Blanc is a better pen and costs more."

The only real diference between a gold nib and a steal nib is that the gold one flex more. When it comes to how smooth it scrash the paper there is not diference becouse both pens have a ball of iridium on the tip of the nib. Gold is too soft of a metal if the tip of the nib was of gold the paper will literaly sand it off. So the important part of the nib that is the part touching the paper is not gold, the tip of the nib is the exact same material of the tip of the nib of a Lamy, hence there is not better experience on gold. I think the Safari should be plastic, that aluminum thing is an abomination.

Eyechess:

"We did not say you had to own a set."

What was say to me is if I don't own it I can't make any comment about the product. Of course I had the oportunity of no just examine the Duv, but to play with it too. After all I did recomend this friend to get it.

"I understand you have nothing personal to Gregor or anyone else in this.  But you did say things that were attacking of Gregor.    When you say you resent someone or something, that is a negative emotion about that."

Probably we are hiting a language/cultural wall here. From where I come I can say for example that your computer is stupid and this have nothing to do with you as a person, even if you built up that computer with your own hands. In order to be a personal atack it have to be directed at a person, no at a product, or at a comment, or anything else. Does it make sense?

"Consider that you are the only one in this thread agreeing with the things you say.  Others have found disagreement with you on no less than 3 or 4 points."

So... I never am the popular one anyway, what was the point?

" Gregor and his family are fine doing what they do and how they do it.  It is not your business how they run their business."

I can make comments in anything I like. My original point is that a Duv can be done cheaper, and in my opinion nobody is in better position to do this than Noj. Is Noj going to do it? probably no, is someone going to do it? I would like that.

"have all disagreed with you telling a fellow how he should run his business and since he does not run his business the way you want, you resent him.  This is wrong on a whole number of levels."

First Level you are misquoting me.

BishopxRook:

"Ugh...that's YOUR definition."

Acordenly to you, what is the difference between art and design?

htdavidht

The Safari still have some flex to it, and I am not working any caligraphy script that requires the line variation you mention. However there is caligraphy kits at Michalles that cost way lest than a Montblanc and all 20 of the nibs on the kit flex more than a gold nib.

To tell you the true there is only 1 gold nib on the world I would like to try and so far no luck... it is the famouse Sailor's cobra nib, a very intriging desing. It turns out than in Japan people learn to write holding the pen at 90 degrees from the paper as it is my understanding of their traditions, so when they want to use a western fountain pen they have great problems with this, because a fountain pen will no wet the paper at such angle, so Sailor design this nib that can be hold at 90 degrees, it doesn't flex at all, but you get line variation inclining the pen. So here a video of someone demostrating how to get line variation on a pen that doesn't flex:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxm2xA_9zj0

I so would like to play with one of those. Ironically the gold nib that gives the greates variation of line doesn't flex at all.

I call the aluminum Safari an abomination because the original design was intended to be plastic, at that time plastic was a fairly new material and people saw it as the material of the future, at some point in the late 80s or 90s people start to see plastic as cheap and hence bad quality material, and start to seek out other materials that give them the feel of style. I don't think there is anything wrong with plastic as a material, I think there is not improvement from making the Safari in aluminum. I also think the balance of the pen, when posted, is off, with plastic is just fine. And this are the reasons why I think the Al-Star should have never existed it didn't improve anything on the Safari and it is just a product that respond to the erroneus perception of plastic, it is made for a market that is not educated. 

About the difference between design and art, there is a lot going on this debate, a simple google search will tell you about this. I could not have made up this stuff. For example:

Too much art ruins the design and likewise too much desing ruins art. The reason of this is because when you desing; the form follows the function, this is: you study how the object is being use and design it to be better used. In art there is not such consideration to functionality, as I say, the object is created with the form as a priority, regardless of how functional it is.

I consider intriging that you say there is not difference between desing and art, for you. Does any of this sentences make sense to you?

1. The Mona Lisa is one of the most famouse works of design on the world.

 2. My favorite piece of art is the spoon I use it everyday.

htdavidht

I have no idea Lamy have a cobra nib. I was talking about Sailor cobra nib. This link explains it better:

http://www.sailorpen.com/nagahara-story.html

At the end of the page is the information on the diferent nibs. I have never play with the Cobra, as I say, it is my understanding it does not flex, but if you say you can flex it... and if this nib doesn't gives line variatiation I have not idea what does.

Yes I can tell the balance is off on the Al-Star, never tough of this as any remarcable hability...

I don't have problems with Aluminum as a material. Just make a suitable design for aluminum. The Safari design doesn't translate well with this material. That is my opinion.

Rams is a great designer, as the people say. I don't know about his aport to the discution about how design and art are different what is know is this debate is not a modern minimalist thing. You have decided not to elaborated on your position. You are telling me you can, with no problem at all, delete one of those words from the dictionary and still never need it back. As if they are the same meaning. I would like you to explain why there is not difference between desing and art.

I don't know why you say I am a great autority in anything. When I made those claims?

Manufacturing is something I do for living.

Desing is one of my obsesions. I am very passionated about design. I have great interest on the objects we use to soround ourself.

I understand a chess set have elemets of design an elements of art. As far as I know, there is not chess set out there made with the principles of modern minimalism, as you call it.

There is not a chess set out there, that I know of, that have being made with the principle of "Form follows fuction". Let alone the 10 principles of good design of Rams... and so on.

htdavidht

A good example of when the artisctic decitions of the designer of a chess set afects the way it is used:

No a few times I have end up pinching my fingers with the spikes of the crown of the Queen. no doubth they look great, still it is anoying when try to play them.

Am I the only one here who have suffer this?

D2_To_D8

In closing ht... Please refer to this thread below, in particular, items 5 & 7.

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-equipment/beware-chess-collecting-diseases

9kick9

David .. how are you getting your fingers spiked by the Queens Crown.? Are you playing Blitz.?

D2_To_D8

LOL-Can't say we've ever seen anyone in our personal travels that have cut themselves on any Dubrovnik queens. Just another positive reason to buy one. Long live the Dubrovniks and the queens are guaranteed not to draw blood ! SurprisedLaughingCoolWink

Eyechess

I have 4 sets with the crenelations on the Queen being pointed.  They are all HoS Jaques reproductions or at least Jaques inspired.  And now that I think of it, I have had and currently own plastic sets with the same thing.

I have never pinched or poked my fingers with them while playing, never ever.  How are you grabbing them?  It can't be right.

There obviously is a serious design problem in the manner which you are grabbing the chess pieces.  If you are indeed as enamoured with design as you say you are, you best be changing the way you grab the pieces.

By the way, the Noj Dubrovnik sets, not Noj Duv (if you want to abbreviate it it should be Noj Dub), do not have the sharp, pointed parts on the Queens or any other piece for that matter.

So the Dubrovnik pieces ARE better designed.

David, I guess you better go ahead and buy a Noj Dub so you can have a very well designed and efficiently manufactured chess set to play with.

htdavidht

D2: I don't care for your comedy. You already have your own topic... I read it already, no need for you to be going all over the forums with the link to your comedy. 

9kick9: Yes, I play fast chess, againts the recommendations of the people who know about this game.

Eyechess: No, I should not adapt myself to the object the object should be design to my use.

--------------------------

About this last point. One of the most interesting things I have seeing about this is the BCE 1 and 2. The diference between them, besides a smiling horse, is basically that the 1 have no collar on the pieces, but the 2 brougth them back because aparently a lot of people use them to grab the pieces.

How do you guys grab your queens? A or B? I am an A

Eyechess

I do not grab the piece in either of the 2 ways you have above.  In fact I do not know anyone that grabs the pieces either way.

Obviously you need to re-design how you grab the pieces.

And the Noj Dubrovnik/Dub is extremely well designed so you could grab the pieces in either inferior way that you have shown, especially the poor "B" grab, and not be poked or pinched by any part of any piece.

And I own both types of BCE pieces, they are designed after the Dubrovnik pieces after all.

D2_To_D8
htdavidht wrote:

D2: I don't care for your comedy. 

LOL-Now that's funny, cause we don't care for your grammar either-LOL ! Think ya best forget about reading chess books for awhile. We think this might be more appropriate for ya...SurprisedLaughing

htdavidht
Eyechess wrote:

I do not grab the piece in either of the 2 ways you have above.  In fact I do not know anyone that grabs the pieces either way.

Obviously you need to re-design how you grab the pieces.

And the Noj Dubrovnik/Dub is extremely well designed so you could grab the pieces in either inferior way that you have shown, especially the poor "B" grab, and not be poked or pinched by any part of any piece.

And I own both types of BCE pieces, they are designed after the Dubrovnik pieces after all.

If this is a joke of yours? it is getting old really fast. This is not how design works. And I didn't made up the north and south holds.

The problem of course is that some people can confuse that Queen with a King. As that profile is more King like... see for example the Daniel Weil's design.

Aparently the inspiration is not longer the Duv, if we though it ever was. It is the Jaques, as this update(?) was recently brought up to my attention. We where mistaking.

htdavidht

One detail here:

"especially the poor "B" grab"

I do the A no the B, however from the website of the Bestchessmen Ever talking about the collars on the number 2:

"Ergonomic collars for grandmaster grip."

http://www.bestchessmenever.com/western/

This I believe, is refering to the Southern grip. While the Northen Grip looks more like the A on the picture. This is North and South of Russia, of course. Where they hold it different on the North than on the South.

Eyechess

I feel sorry for you, David.  You are confused as to what is what.

We were discussing the sharp points in the Queen's crown.  As I pointed out to you, they are not a problem with the normal and correct grasps on the pieces, that you call holds.

It does not matter whether you made up those poor grips or not.  If you use them you are agreeing with a definite design problem in the usage of the set.

You really need to take time to correct your spelling, grammar and word usage in the English language.  For instance "where" means a location.  "Were" is the past tense of the verb "are".

What sets do you actually own and/or play with?  Can you not afford a good set like the Noj Dubrovnik II or the Noj made BCE with Stainless bases?s

If money is a problem, David, then there are plastic Dubrovnik sets available for a lot less money.  If you can afford a little more, the HoS Dubrovnik set is also designed and manufactured very well.

And yes, I do own both a Stage 1 and a Stage 2 BCE set.  The Stage 2 one is made by Noj in a highly efficient manufacturing manner.  It also has the stainless steel bases.  And it plays very well, about as nice as the Noj Dubrovnik II.

It will be alright, David.  Just take your time and the goodness of Noj will come to you.

Eyechess
htdavidht wrote:

One detail here:

"especially the poor "B" grab"

I do the A no the B, however from the website of the Bestchessmen Ever talking about the collars on the number 2:

"Ergonomic collars for grandmaster grip."

http://www.bestchessmenever.com/western/

This I believe, is refering to the Southern grip. While the Northen Grip looks more like the A on the picture. This is North and South of Russia, of course. Where they hold it different on the North than on the South.

Poor David, you think there are only 2 ways to hold or grip chess pieces.

Well David, there are more ways than these to properly grip the pieces.

Eyechess

David I want to apologize to you for we who have argued with you.

You must understand that we all were taking the attitude that you actually knew what you were talking about.  We were mistaken in that.

I now see that you do not know what you are talking about.  You really do not know design from structure.  You do not know that there certainly is a design in how things are physically done.

You do not know the correct way to grasp a chess piece.

From now on David, I will treat you accordingly and correctly.  I will strive to teach and educate you to the true ways of Chess sets, their design and their manufacture.

htdavidht

Eyechess:

The way I was educated I don't brag about what I own. It is really bad manners to do so. This is why I don't show off. I don't have anything againts the people who show off, but I am not going to be bully into "showing off", this line is not about you but yet you are getting into this mindset.

I am a simple man who makes a living working hard, I give myself few luxuries on this life, one of them is that each year on my birthday I give myself a chess set, have being doing this for some years now. Sometimes I can afford what I want, sometimes I am happy with what I can afford that year.

I am telling you this becouse I find ofensive the way I am being treated because I don't want to take pictures and brag about my stuff.

rcmacmillan:

This is as much as telling a critic of movies to go on a become a director himself.

I do have a couple of design ideas about a chess set. But the true is a chess set is 6 diferent objects that have to function as a whole. And 2 ideas is not enough.

BCE is defenitly a modern design. I am not sure it qualifies as minimalist, though.

Eyechess

Once again, David, you show your confusion.

I was never talking about bragging.  And I am certainly not trying to "bully" you into doing anything, let alone showing off what you own.  In fact I never told you to take pictures or anything.

I am talking about design and the correct manufacturing of chess sets.

While you are in the manufacturing business, it obviously has nothing to do with chess sets.  And that's alright.

You apparently are working with a very limited group of data.  For instance you think there are only 2 ways to grip a chess piece.  And you have a very limited view of what design in a chess set is.

What is your favorite chess set to play with?  By answering this question it will tell us of your preferences for design, and to a lesser degree the manufacture of the set.

htdavidht

The German Knight have being my favorite for a long time, however the Lardy is wining my affections, latly.

The set on the picture where I try to demostrate the most common grips is the "Parker", from thechessstore.com

htdavidht

Most of the games I play are online though. Today I play a tournament on this virtual seting. I am the cat Avatar sittign on the front board: