Set I.D help

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Avatar of BorgarMeister

I was hoping someone here with more expertise than me might be able to help me with this (This will be my first nice wooden set). I recently purchased a vintage set of pieces for what seemed like a pretty good price and I thought it was a Lardy, but the more I look at it (Particularly the knight) the more I wonder if it may be a Chavet. It came with a box labelled as E.S Lowe, and an instruction booklet dated 1945. The King is around 3.75 inches.

Bonus question: Is this an actual 1945 make and is it possible to narrow it down by month?



Avatar of Pamvo7

I think it's Chavet from late 40s. The booklet is from 1945 but the pieces could be from slightly later date as German National Socialists bombed Dortan during WW2 and destroyed some workshops.

@Walterbiensur could tell you much more about it, he the expert on French pieces.

And congrats on a very nice set! happy

Avatar of beachero

I have a few similar sets that I’ve long suspected are not Lardy but probably Chavet. Features like the turtle-necked bishop, low-rise knight pedestal, coupled with this knight head. The craftsmanship/finishing on these sets also seems to be a little finer than my typical Lardy sets. I have a Lowe set with the same 1945 booklet, but don’t think it dates the set to the year or even the decade. I Imagine they would use booklets with this copyright date until the booklet needed to be updated and reprinted. It would be interesting to see the range of other Lowe booklets with different copyright dates. If you could see the series of years, that could really help date sets.

Avatar of kiwimotard

I agree it looks like Chavet.

Avatar of Walterbiensur

Not easy… but not Lardy.

Look at the King and the bishop Phidias. If similarity, you got a Phidias from "Pichon - Vincent".


Avatar of Walterbiensur

And to make matters worse, Chavet also sold to Lowe.

A similar set was used during the 1967 French Championship. 3rd photo

http://heritageechecsfra.free.fr/1967.htm

Avatar of Pamvo7

Another French set sold by E.S. Lowe in US after WW2. Seller thinks it's from 40s:

Avatar of Pamvo7

And another set that (different) seller also thought it's been sold by E.S. Lowe in the late 40s:

@Walterbiensur

And to make things worse, Chess-museum also says Lardy sold to Lowe, but I don't know if it's true...

Avatar of Walterbiensur

I think this are Chavet, but more like from the 60's.

The Chess Museum made a mistake in some of its analyses of French chess sets, specifically those by Lardy.

He used a 1957 article to illustrate Lardy sets. I found the article. I found the photographer's daughter. She sent me all the photos from the report.

Then I found the children and nephews of the people in the photos.

The photos aren't from the Lardy factory, but from the Dortan cooperative, created in 1945 to revive the industry after the village was destroyed by the Nazis.

Avatar of Walterbiensur
I wrote this on fb :
 
 
 
" This is not a Lardy
One of the first websites I visited, even though I knew absolutely nothing about chess set collections, was undoubtedly that of Nicholas Lanier (1954-2019), the famous www.chess-museum.com.
It's an admirable site, teeming with hundreds of thousands of pieces of information, illustrations, photos, analyses... frankly, who doesn't know it?
My greatest regret will undoubtedly be not having been able to talk with this great man, because "I have mountains of questions in my boots." And I would have loved to tell him this story... because it was ultimately he who put me on this trail.
Quite quickly, I fell in love with this photo (1). Not only for the chess sets it illustrates, but also for the references surrounding it. You should know that I've lived in Alsace almost my whole life, and finding an article in "l'Alsace Illustrée" about Dortan and its woodturners, which isn't the village right next door, really piqued my curiosity. It also included the photographer's name, and that's no small feat.
It didn't take me long to find the website of Mr. Ribière's foundation, less alone contact his daughter. I was also hoping to find a copy of this newspaper from March 1957. But no way... impossible to find.
She quickly sent me all the photos (in low definition) taken by her father during this report in Dortan. For copyright reasons, I'm unable to publish them. But the effect of viewing these pictures is very close to a journey through time—at least, I imagine so! Having the door of the Lardy woodturning workshop opened, as if we were there in 1957, is certainly worth the most beautiful bottle of Bordeaux wine, which we savor religiously.
I then discovered the face of this young lady (https://www.archimag.com/.../entre2prises-memoire.). How is it that she isn't pictured in the report? Editor's choice? What a shame... A few months later, on a trip to Dortan, I showed these photos to the niece of Félix Canier, one of the village's renowned woodturners, also pictured in the report.
"But it's Claude Jeantelet!!!"
A few weeks later, thanks to social media, Claude Jeantelet's daughter called me. At the end of the conversation, I asked her bluntly if she didn't have one or more chess sets, as a souvenir from the time her mother worked at Lardy... "But she never worked at Lardy!" She was an accountant for the Dortan artisanal woodturning cooperative (photo 3 in 1962)!
It was actually the photographer who asked her to pose. One of these photos was even chosen for an advertisement in an English magazine. Well, wow... these chess sets are therefore from the cooperative and not at all from Lardy... I, who thought I had finally discovered the origin of the proto-Lardys, discovered that they were not Lardys.
But that wasn't enough for me. I also had to find that newspaper! As a last resort, after several months of searching, I tried one last attempt at the Strasbourg University Library (BNU). Bingo! And this morning, I was finally able to retrieve that famous newspaper and the entire accompanying article. I'm sharing with you the part about Dortan.
And the next time you see a knight like the one in the main photo of this article, know that it's no longer a Lardy 😉.
"Dortan, Martyred Village
But what is generally unknown is that a small French village in the Jura region, Dortan, is the capital of chess sets. It is here, in fact, that almost all of the world's chess sets are handcrafted (except for Russian ones). Young and old, men and women, live in this village only through chess, and the total production is approximately 250,000 sets per year.
This production is exported, 95% of which is mainly to North America (USA and Canada), England, Germany, Italy, North and South Africa, and Australia. France, as one can see, therefore only accounts for 5% of production. But what manufacturers cannot understand, and are far from complaining about, is how so many chess sets can be sold worldwide, because when a family acquires a set, they generally keep it for many years.
This specialization in the woodturning industry, which dates back to the monks of the Middle Ages, has been maintained thanks to the perfection of the craftsmen of this region. Only the war of 1940 and the destruction of the village would lead to the dispersal of the workforce. Completely destroyed by the Germans on July 21, 1944, the village of Dortan has since been rebuilt, and most of its artisans, initially scattered throughout the neighboring towns, have gradually returned.
While the pieces are turned by men, their finishing is mainly the work of women, who paint and varnish them. Some quality sets have a hole drilled in the base into which molten lead is poured, giving each piece greater stability. A green felt disc is also glued under the base to protect the board.
Three models are produced: ordinary sets, Regency sets, and Staunton sets. The first two are only in demand in France. On the other hand, Staunton sets (named after one of the most famous English players of the last century) are used in most foreign countries.
Thus, a tiny village with barely a thousand inhabitants is, unbeknownst to the French, the world capital of chess."
Avatar of Walterbiensur

I could also have written more simply: the article never mentions Lardy, not once. None of the photo captions mention a particular woodturning workshop. In the photos I've seen, I'm not convinced the knights were made at the workshop. They only magically appear in photos of the finished sets.

My opinion is that only a small number of turners were capable of making the knights, and they had to make them for several different workshops before mechanization made this specific task easier. That's why we often make a mistake trying to attribute a set solely based on the knight.

I could show sets from Chavet with bishop queens and kings identical to those from other manufacturers.

Avatar of BorgarMeister

Thank you everyone for the excellent responses!

Walterbiensur, the history of these sets, and the village of Dortan, is a fascinating read. It seems like there was a lot of cross over of styles between these companies, especially since they look like they were working together for a while.

The knights look close, but not quite, like the Phidias knight you posted but the Kings, Bishops, and Queens don't seem to match.

The closest match I've found for the knights was an ebay listing for a set from Cavalier, which doesn't help much since they look like they were a reseller of Lardys and Chavets as well. But then again, it looks like knights aren't super reliable indicators of make from what you are saying.

After looking through Pamvo7's pictures and a few other sets , I think I am going to take a risk and call it a Chavet. At least until someone calls me out on it. happy

Avatar of Walterbiensur

There's also this last woodturner who manufactured exclusively for export. I suppose he occasionally visited other woodturning workshops to meet demand. I can't guarantee that the illustration is identical to the sets he offered. It dates from 1982. Just near Dortan.

Generally speaking, I think this type of game was created around 1960. I found another advertisement from 1961, in a department store, but the brand of the game isn't specified.

Avatar of Pamvo7
Walterbiensur wrote:

There's also this last woodturner who manufactured exclusively for export. I suppose he occasionally visited other woodturning workshops to meet demand. I can't guarantee that the illustration is identical to the sets he offered. It dates from 1982. Just near Dortan.

Generally speaking, I think this type of game was created around 1960. I found another advertisement from 1961, in a department store, but the brand of the game isn't specified.

"...I found another advertisement from 1961, ..."

Can you post it here, please? Merci beaucoup.

Avatar of Walterbiensur

Only this with 1961 size 2 and 5 +/-

Avatar of Pamvo7

This is a dated set from my collection, from a World Cruise Jan-May 1961 which means it was made in 1960. I think it's Vincent (Phidias). Jaques box stamped 5034 - size 4 (83mm) weighted.

Avatar of Walterbiensur

I think so - Hastings 1963 - Mikhaïl Tal - Vincent-Pichon commercial photo overlay

Avatar of Pamvo7

Excellent match with Hastings 1963, Walter! I recognized the set from another thread.

And here is a Chavet 203, dated 1960 (or 1968?), unweighted, not in my collection:

Avatar of Walterbiensur

I don't have the exact date of the introduction of these sets at Chavet, the 60s is a fairly precise period ;-)

It is especially excellent to be able to link the period with this type of labels!
Avatar of Walterbiensur

This also shows that the profiles of some parts did not change much between the 1960s and 1980s.