1. g4 the Grob
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The fact that some first moves (1 e4, 1 d4) are played more often than others (1 g4, 1 h4) at the highest levels of chess quite clearly demonstrates that some moves are more sound than others.
"1 g4 e5 2 f3...now that's unsound."
No, that's 'losing'.
I have been playing the grob in blitz latley and scoring very well with it. I dismissed this opening in the past but until you experiment with it you cant really recognise its strong and weak points.
May 18, 2008
0
#24
If Kasparov can draw deep blue with the van't kruijs opening, no first move can be that unsound.
grensley wrote:If Kasparov can draw deep blue with the van't kruijs opening, no first move can be that unsound.
Please read the earlier posts.
Grob, unsound or sound?
One of the best ways to find out is by playing it against Chess.com's "Against The Computer" (highlight PLAY above, and click Against The Computer).
All the best.
Honestly, how can you call 1. h4 sound?
g2-g4, e2-e3 and you have a solid formation because originally that pawn is out for take by the other player.
since 1.g4 doesn't seem to do any more than g3 except create weaknesses, this opening is obviously meant to be played as a trap since the g pawn is undefended.
Elubas wrote:
since 1.g4 doesn't seem to do any more than g3 except create weaknesses, this opening is obviously meant to be played as a trap since the g pawn is undefended.
Well in the Queens gambit, the c4 pawn is undefended.
The g pawn is in some variations a lure to reposition black's c8 bishop early, leading to tactical complications.
All those saying the Grob is unsound, have you played it against it and punished it multiple times from the Black side in real games? Or are you just quoting general opening theory.
Against best defence, it may not be the optimum opening, but how often do you meet best defence at your level. And, is it always a good idea to lauch into an "optimum" opening against which your opponent knows 15 variations, 10 moves deep?
Well, I have tried to revive the Grob Opening through a move I used when I played the Grob years ago. I will give my theory I have to date and hopefully you can add any improvements as needed. I was thinking of playing this at my next tournament. My new move is 2.e3. My theory is based off of my game experience playing the Grob. All the lines are playable for white, but not necessarily equal. Despite this, none of the lines are outright losing. Hopefully I can convince a few more players that the Grob is better than previously thought.
1.g4 d5 (1...e5 2.e3 Nc6 [2...b6 3.Bg2; 2...d5 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Qa4; 2...Qf6 3.Nc3] 3.Nc3; 1...d6 2.e3 e5 3.d3; 1...c5 2.e3 d6 [2...d5 3.Nc3] 3.d4; 1...g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.g5; 1...c6 2.Bg2 d5 transposes; 1...g5 2.d4 d5 3.Bxg5 Bxg4 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Qd2 Bg7 6.0-0-0 Qd7 7.Bg2 0-0-0 8.Bxd5 Nxd4 9.Nf3) 2.Bg2 (2.e3 e5 [2...h6 3.d4; 2...e6 3.d4 c5 4.Nc3] 3.d4 Nd7 4.Bg2 c6 5.Nc3) 2...Bxg4 (2...c6 3.h3! e5 [3...h5 4.gxh5 Rxh5 5.d4 Nf6 6.Nd2 Bf5 7.Ngf3 e6 8.Nf1 Rh8 9.Ng3] 4.d4 [4.d3 Bd6 5.Nf3 Ne7 6.e3] 4...e4 5.c4 [5.Bf4!? untested] 5...Bd6 6.Nc3 Ne7 7.Bg5 f6 8.Bd2 0-0 9.Qb3 Kh8 10.0-0-0; 2...e5 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Qxd5) 3.c4 e6 (3...c6 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.Nc3 Nf6 [5...e6? 6.Qa4+] 6.Qb3; 3...dxc4 4.Bxg7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8 6.f3) 4.Qb3 Nf6 5.Qxb7 Nbd7 6.cxd5
My new moves are in these lines:
1.g4 e5 2.e3N
1.g4 d5 2.e3N
1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 c6 3.h3N
Feb 14, 2010
0
#33
i use the Grob (and its black counterpart--the Borg) from time to time. I've won several games with it. I don't swear by it. I have Basman's book and Bloodgood's book as well. there are some fun lines to be played with G4. having played it a lot i also am totally aware that it can get you into some serious trouble at times. at my level though, 9/10 players have no idea what to do against it so it can be very fun. Basman really has had some great games with it. plus his book--The Killer Grob is pretty entertaining. he seems like a pretty witty bloke.
MagicTammi wrote:
Elubas wrote:
since 1.g4 doesn't seem to do any more than g3 except create weaknesses, this opening is obviously meant to be played as a trap since the g pawn is undefended.
Well in the Queens gambit, the c4 pawn is undefended.
The g pawn is in some variations a lure to reposition black's c8 bishop early, leading to tactical complications.
All those saying the Grob is unsound, have you played it against it and punished it multiple times from the Black side in real games? Or are you just quoting general opening theory.
Against best defence, it may not be the optimum opening, but how often do you meet best defence at your level. And, is it always a good idea to lauch into an "optimum" opening against which your opponent knows 15 variations, 10 moves deep?
It's as bad to assume the opening unsound as it is to assume that every amateur won't have a clue to face it. I know the pitfalls of an early g pawn capture and I think I could take advantage of the k side weakness to some extent.
Not optimum may apply to moves like 1 g3 or 1 a3, but 1 g4 is plain dubious (I want to say plain bad but I'll be nice and safe). It's the most weakening move on the board, all for some traps and a fianchetto.
any 1 pawn move to start for white is sound, just because they can give a tempi most of the time to get to a black defense..
1.c3 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.c4 1.c3 e5 2.c4
but you guys are right, when talking about the grob it does become a little more in the grey
Feb 15, 2010
0
#36
cheesehat wrote:
Honestly, how can you call 1. h4 sound?
I didn't see anyone talking about 1.h4 being sound. We're talking about 1.g4 here. However if you think that 1.h4 is not sound then it's up to you to prove it. It's very, very hard to bust any first move. In fact I've never heard of any opening move ever...EVER being refuted. And, REFUTATION is the definition, at least as I understand it, of the term "unsound". So, I say again, if you think 1. h4 is unsound, show us all the proof that you have.
I think 1 g4 objectively is even worse than 1 h4, but offers more practical chances. I don't know the exact definition of a sound chess variation, how good it really is, but 1 h4 is a bad move, and no I'm not saying you will win in 15 moves, I'm just saying it's a bad move, commiting to a kingside weakness right away and not really helping his game in any way.
Some people could try to argue that the h pawn might be good for a pawn storm, but I find that much less likely than it being a weakness. In the sicilian, the h pawn can be used for an attack against a fianchetto but that's only when the central situation is clarified. You don't commit to that on move 1 when the center is not at all clear and just hope for the best.
rich wrote:
It's terrible.
Based on what?
I gave analysis on the revival of the Grob, showing that with best play black will have a modest advantage. White has not been refuted. Where is your analysis? I admit that the Grob is not as strong as other openings, but it has more potential than people realize. Now to 1.h4.
The point behind the rook pawn openings is to allow a rook lift to assist in the attack while the rook pawn is used as a battering ram in a pawn storm attack.
The problem is that this opening is the worst opening in chess, even worse than 1.g4. In rank 1.a4 is slightly better than 1.h4 because it does not weaken the kingside. 1.h4 creates a weak pawn on h4 that can only be defended by the rook and a pawn move to g3, further weakening the kingside. It does not open diagonals for the bishops, and the knight's future is questionable. The point of a rook lift is very slow, losing several tempo, allowing black to build up a powerful position. Now for the theory.
1.h4
This opening is referred to as Kadas Opening
1...d5
This move takes a stake in the center and prevents a possible rook life unless white wishes to expend an additional tempo on a pawn move.
But, there is a better move.
1...c5!
This puts to question White's first move. White would not play 2.d4 because it causes an additional loss of tempo.
2.e4
This is the only sensible move as others allow black to take the center.
2...b6
This move sets up a fianchetto to attack White's weak pawn on e4. The defense of this pawn becomes very difficult for white.
3.Nc3 Bb7
This also prepares a d5 pawn break cementing Black's grip on the center.
4.Bc4
To prevent the bishop from being blunted by a defensive d3 after a d5 pawn break.
4...e6!
Black now has several threats: The d5 pawn break, and Be7 threatening White's weak h4 pawn.
5.d3
Probably White's best to get the other bishop out and castle queenside if possible.
5...Be7
Forcing a concession by white to deal with the threat.
6.Nf3
Again, probably the best move. After 6.h5, black can just play 6...h6! White wasted an additional tempo so black can use his time to prevent the advance. Furthermore, White's dark squares are very weak. If white instead plays 6.Qg4, then black gains at least two more tempos after 6...Nf6. If white continues 7.Qxg7? black should play 7...Rg8! 8.Qh6 d5! and white is losing.
6...d5! 7.exd5 exd5 8.Bb5+ Nbd7 9.Ne5 Nf6 10.Bg5 0-0!
White is completely lost.
Conquiscador wrote:
rich wrote:
It's terrible.
Based on what?
I gave analysis on the revival of the Grob, showing that with best play black will have a modest advantage. White has not been refuted. Where
If the Black gets even a modest advantage out of the opening (with best play), that would be a refutation. There are plenty of other openings that give White an advantage or at least don't leave them worse.
Also, it's not like the Grob is a Latvian gambit or something that poses complicated tactical problems and requires minute knowledge of the lines from the opponent. All the Black needs to do is push one or both central pawns and develop naturally, perhaps developing the King's Knight on e7 instead of f6.
Well I just won my first match with this opening
http://gameknot.com/chess.pl?bd=16575905&rnd=4368
I know, silly game but I'm happy it worked out that well