2. Bc4 against the sicilian.

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Dolphin27

The idea of e6 is not just to block the bishop, it's also to play an early d5, which just happens to hit the bishop on c4. This is another reason it's badly placed there, don't forget the fork trick also.

It may be a bit much to call 2.Bc4 a sin that must be punished, but it is kind of sad that people play it considering that those who want to avoid Sicilian theory have so many interesting anti-Sicilian options to choose from (The Sicilian having far more "antis" than any other response to 1.e4), but instead of selecting from this array of options these people just play 2.Bc4. It's kind of like taking someone to a luxury clothing store and saying "you can select anything in this store that you want", and they go "no I don't want to pick anything out here, Instead I'll just wear this dookie-stained shirt I got out of a garbage can". 2.Bc4 is playable, just as a dookie-stained shirt is wearable, but in both cases doing so sends the message that you're lazy, apathetic, and have no real interest in chess or anything else.

By the way, Rybka 4 says 2...Nc6 is stronger than 2...e6. I have tried various set-ups against 2.Bc4 and I do have the most success with 2...Nc6, because it's best to develop some pieces before breaking in the center with an immediate e6-d5. After 2...Nc6 White should bring one of their knights out then Black plays 3...Nf6  There are some slighty tactical variations involving early e5 pushes (or counterpushes in response to Black's d5), and also one where White sacs a bishop on f7, but they all work out for Black.

prashanth222000
Dolphin27 wrote:

The idea of e6 is not just to block the bishop, it's also to play an early d5, which just happens to hit the bishop on c4. This is another reason it's badly placed there, don't forget the fork trick also.

It may be a bit much to call 2.Bc4 a sin that must be punished, but it is kind of sad that people play it considering that those who want to avoid Sicilian theory have so many interesting anti-Sicilian options to choose from (The Sicilian having far more "antis" than any other response to 1.e4), but instead of selecting from this array of options these people just play 2.Bc4. It's kind of like taking someone to a luxury clothing store and saying "you can select anything in this store that you want", and they go "no I don't want to pick anything out here, Instead I'll just wear this dookie-stained shirt I got out of a garbage can". 2.Bc4 is playable, just as a dookie-stained shirt is wearable, but in both cases doing so sends the message that you're lazy, apathetic, and have no real interest in chess or anything else.

By the way, Rybka 4 says 2...Nc6 is stronger than 2...e6. I have tried various set-ups against 2.Bc4 and I do have the most success with 2...Nc6, because it's best to develop some pieces before breaking in the center with an immediate e6-d5. After 2...Nc6 White should bring one of their knights out then Black plays 3...Nf6  There are some slighty tactical variations involving early e5 pushes (or counterpushes in response to Black's d5), and also one where White sacs a bishop on f7, but they all work out for Black.

I have seen many engines give 2.e6 as the best.

prashanth222000
Sqod wrote:

XPLAYERJX,

Nice explanation and examples. I didn't know those subtleties of the Sicilian Defense.

leiph18,

I didn't get into that chapter of Alburt & Parr's book deeply enough to learn exactly to which principles they were referring. It was just a library book I had borrowed for a while for other reasons, and the only reason that one paragraph stood out for me was that this is about the third thread I've seen where somebody asked that same question, so I thought it would be a good excerpt to have on hand. I was right.

prashanth222000,

Great game! I'm surprised your rating isn't much higher.

Thanks :D . I am a 15 10 playerusually. Just started blitz.

prashanth222000
Chicken_Monster wrote:
prashanth222000 wrote:
Chicken_Monster wrote:
prashanth222000 wrote:

See this. I play this trap against many players.

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game?id=1029714218

 

 



Interesting. Do you have any more like that where 2...e6 is played and also any other examples where something other than 2...e6 is played?


 

Umm.. I need to check my games. :)


OK. I'll wait. Thanks.


A tricky line.



Chicken_Monster

Thanks.

HungryChild
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

What is so terrible about this move that most opening books fail to give it more than the slightest reference? Richard Palliser's "Fighting the Anti-Sicilians" - an entire book dedicated to tricky, non-standard Sicilians, and the only thing he says about it is that it's misguided due to e6. 

However Houdini doesn't hate this move, and if you go through the variations, it gets slightly tricky at times (at least in blitz, where you're a lot more likely to see it), since black has to make sure white's bishop really is shut out while and end up making moves such as Be6 to support the d5 pawn. 

I realize that Bc4 is the first idea of people who don't have a clue about openings, however I can't help but feel it's not actually so bad, or at least I couldn't convincingly refute it.

you lost me at your speak of houdini.

HungryChild

Bc4 against sicilian is just called sozin.  Its quite sharp and deep. 

But not enough to warrent a thread.

Dolphin27

When I used Rybka 4 to analyze this I let it run for a very long time, so long that the fans on my computer started making a heavy *whiiirrrrrrrr* noise. At first it preferred 2...e6 slightly to 2...Nc6 by a margin of 0.06th of a pawn, but eventually 2...Nc6 took the lead and it settled on that.

 In any case I prefer 2...Nc6 because they tell us we shouldn't make too many pawn moves in the opening. We've already played c5, and if we play an e6 and immediately go for d5, this is three pawn moves before developing a piece, and if we go 2...e6 without the intention of going 3...d5 immediately next then why is e6 necessary at the second move?

Most likely these lines with 2...e6 and 2...Nc6 will transpose anyway, but one other thing to consider is these 2.Bc4 people are used to seeing 2...e6, 2...Nc6 is played less, perhaps they will feel a little bit less comfortable when 2...Nc6 is played.

2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 I find harder to play against, there's this kind of delayed alapin that some people do. I haven't researched or analyzed this yet though.

HungryChild
Dolphin27 wrote:

When I used Rybka 4 to analyze this I let it run for a very long time, so long that the fans on my computer started making a heavy *whiiirrrrrrrr* noise. At first it preferred 2...e6 slightly to 2...Nc6 by a margin of 0.06th of a pawn, but eventually 2...Nc6 took the lead and it settled on that.

 In any case I prefer 2...Nc6 because they tell us we shouldn't make too many pawn moves in the opening. We've already played c5, and if we play an e6 and immediately go for d5, this is three pawn moves before developing a piece, and if we go 2...e6 without the intention of going 3...d5 immediately next then why is e6 necessary at the second move?

Most likely these lines with 2...e6 and 2...Nc6 will transpose anyway, but one other thing to consider is these 2.Bc4 people are used to seeing 2...e6, 2...Nc6 is played less, perhaps they will feel a little bit less comfortable when 2...Nc6 is played.

2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 I find harder to play against, there's this kind of delayed alapin that some people do. I haven't researched or analyzed this yet though.

I quit reading at "I use rybka"...

(edited to keep family friendly)

Chesscoaching

I have yet to see a credible refutation to 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4. Sure, 2...e6 is "a threat" (Anderssen and Wyvill finished 1-2 at London 1851 [knockout])




drybasin
Chesscoaching wrote:

I have yet to see a credible refutation to 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4. Sure, 2...e6 is "a threat" (Anderssen and Wyvill finished 1-2 at London 1851 [knockout])

There really isnt a "refutation" to 2.Bc4, but it certainly isn't a good move, because the bishop can often end up as a target, and it doesn't really do anything on move 2 on c4.  Maybe later on, such as the Sozin or the line JMB2010 gave, but not now.  It's certainly playable, but that's the best that can really be said about it.

prashanth222000
XPLAYERJX wrote:
prashanth222000 wrote:
Try this variation.

Your variation is caused you not to be able to castle. An if you do castle your position is lost my friend

The variation I was showing was your only real chance for survival. In this line you are just at the mercy of the white player's. A rook and a queen dominating a file facing your king is never good or winning.

 


I know you may love this line but trust me their are better ways of playing Bc4 that will help you get the advantage.

As you can see in that diagram your in a very uncomfortable spot not being able to castle and having pawns ruined as well. You have to rememeber in chess not every player is an attacking white player they can also play positionally against you. They have pressure on you they can just sit their and develop their pieces and add more pressure on them he doesn't have to kill you with a killer checkmate blow your already techinically dieing positionally with ruin pawns and an exposed king. He can just sit their and put more pressure on you till you die. Which sounds bad but its true thats how positional players win they grind you down till you can't move or do anything like a python squeezing you to death.

Do you see What I am doing? What I am doing is attacking your weakness I see the square e7 as being weak.  I have my queen and rook attacking e7 I want to invade the 7th rank by ways of the e7 square. You are defending the e7 square with your king and your queen and than you play Nc6 to defend the e7 square. By me playing Ne5 What I have done is my knight on f3 was not contributing to the attack of the e7 square so by playing Ne5 my intention is to attack the defenders that are protecting the e7 square. I will take a piece that I am not using in the battle of the e7 square and trade it for a piece you are using to defend the e7 square. I will than play Bg5 hitting the knight on f6 indirectly attacking the e7 square.

Analyze it carefully bro. :)



prashanth222000
prashanth222000 wrote:
XPLAYERJX wrote:
prashanth222000 wrote:
Try this variation.

Your variation is caused you not to be able to castle. An if you do castle your position is lost my friend

The variation I was showing was your only real chance for survival. In this line you are just at the mercy of the white player's. A rook and a queen dominating a file facing your king is never good or winning.

 


I know you may love this line but trust me their are better ways of playing Bc4 that will help you get the advantage.

As you can see in that diagram your in a very uncomfortable spot not being able to castle and having pawns ruined as well. You have to rememeber in chess not every player is an attacking white player they can also play positionally against you. They have pressure on you they can just sit their and develop their pieces and add more pressure on them he doesn't have to kill you with a killer checkmate blow your already techinically dieing positionally with ruin pawns and an exposed king. He can just sit their and put more pressure on you till you die. Which sounds bad but its true thats how positional players win they grind you down till you can't move or do anything like a python squeezing you to death.

Do you see What I am doing? What I am doing is attacking your weakness I see the square e7 as being weak.  I have my queen and rook attacking e7 I want to invade the 7th rank by ways of the e7 square. You are defending the e7 square with your king and your queen and than you play Nc6 to defend the e7 square. By me playing Ne5 What I have done is my knight on f3 was not contributing to the attack of the e7 square so by playing Ne5 my intention is to attack the defenders that are protecting the e7 square. I will take a piece that I am not using in the battle of the e7 square and trade it for a piece you are using to defend the e7 square. I will than play Bg5 hitting the knight on f6 indirectly attacking the e7 square.

Analyze it carefully bro. :)

 



I accept that the line I had posted had mistakes but this line corrects them.

prashanth222000
XPLAYERJX wrote:
prashanth222000 wrote:

I accept that the line I had posted had mistakes but this line corrects them.

I don't have to play 12.Qe2

 

 

I am winning now I'm up a pawn. All I have to do is consolidate my position and develop the rest of my army.

Don't think that is a good choice.



bogdan_popescu0905

13 ... Rhe8 and I think you lose an exchange.
  

varelse1

I won't say after 2.Bc4 white is losing, or even worse. But I have faced it many times. And I always seem to get a playable game against it as black.

Am amazed there isn't more literature on it though, given it's popularity. God knows, worse openings have had books written about them.

oldfart62

STUPID!!!!!!!!

Sqod

Follow-up: I came across that library book again today and I looked through the chapter that started by talking about the weakness of that opening. There was no clear-cut explanation of that particular move 2. Bc4, but I believe the following passage is the one where the underlying principles are discussed, in analogy to the Giuoco Piano that also uses Bc4. Basically the move is weak because it threatens nothing, therefore it doesn't gain a tempo but rather loses the initiative unless accompanied by a gambit, namely the Evans Gambit in the case of the Giuoco Piano.

----------

(p. 136)
   After being regarded as the king of all gambits during portions of the
nineteenth century, the Evans Gambit spent the first three or four decades
of this century in relative disrepute. It has since staged a comeback after
Bobby Fischer adopted it in the 1960s. World champion Garry Kasparov
employed the gambit in an important tournament game to defeat one of
his most dangerous rivals, Viswanathan Anand of India (a recent chal-
lenger for the world championship).
   With the arrival of large computer databases that can store up to one
million tournament games, it has also become possible to provide quanti-
fiable won-loss results for many openings. At the moment, the Evans
appears to enjoy the largest winning percentage of any opening for White
among master games in the major databases.
   The idea of the Evans is a variation on a key theme of the Giuoco
Piano, which is to play 4. c3 in order to push in the center with 5. d4,
establishing a formidable central pawn phalanx. But the problem with 4.
c3 is that the move threatens nothing on its turn and permits Black a solid
developing move, 4 ... Nf6 (which also attacks the White pawn on e4),
when many of the key positions peter out to equality. In the Evans proper,
White get in c2-c3 with tempo after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc3 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4
Bxb4 5. c3, often followed by 6. d4.

Alburt, Lev, and Larry Parr. 1997. Secrets of the Russian Chess Masters, Volume 2: Beyond the Basics. New York: W. W. Norton & Company.

prashanth222000

Don't think that is good too.



prashanth222000

That is the move I madein new analysis. Edited the wrong one.