2.Bc4 Sicilian

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wornaki
I've got two big questions about that move: 1) why do most amateur players insist on playing it? Italian game obsession? 2) why do masters still play it occasionally even when it's abysmally bad? I dread playing the Sicilian because I hate having to deal with Grand Prix nonsense, closed Sicilian nonsense, but most importantly 2.Bc4 nonsense. It's so annoying that I legitimately believe it's the most trolling line ever in the Sicilian. Nothing else comes even close...
Strangemover

It's not the most testing line but a good player with white should get a roughly equal position from the opening. It avoids all the sharp theory in open Sicilians. You say you dread playing the Sicilian because of several 'nonsense' lines, especially 2.Bc4 which you say is 'abysmally bad', 'so annoying', 'trolling'. Why you dread facing this stuff if it is nonsense? 

wornaki

Because it is objectively bad, but it takes time to get an advantage with black. Also, it is a way to refuse to play chess. I'm just annoyed about by its persistence at lower rating levels and I'm perplexed people still play it at higher levels. I know it can transpose to better fighting lines, but it's still horrible

Strangemover

The psychological impact it has on you to see this move is precisely why people play it. You go 1.c5 hoping for your favourite open Sicilian set up with black but instead you get a completely different type of game. OK, it's not forcing or dangerous for white, but it is very far from terrible. It is not 'a way to refuse to play chess'... it's just a different approach to how you like to play. A couple of analogies...if you lose a race it's no good complaining that the other runner didn't run gracefully. If your football team plays a beautiful attacking passing game but loses a match to a team that plays defensively and with long balls it is no good complaining that they didn't play stylishly. You have to beat whatever is put in front of you. 

wornaki

There's some truth to that. The good thing is that,  2.Bc4 is such a disgrace, it eventually stops being alluring for serious players. A "surprise weapon" at higher levels as an "Anti-Sicilian"? Maybe, But most masters would rather play more aggressively with white. At some point I hope to reach a level in which i rarely, if ever, see that abomination. happy.png

Still, it's interesting people love it so much. I think it's the nefarious "attack on f7 as quickly as possible" influence and not anything remotely Anti Sicilianesque at lower levels, but YMMV.

bong711

The only way to beat the 2. Bc4 Sicilian is study Opening Explorer and Games from database. 

pfren

How come a very early move which develops a piece without creating any weaknesses, and putting any pressure to the opponent as well, can be "abysmally bad"?

This is something that only chess geniuses know.

Super-GM Fedoseev playing against another 2600-class GM under a regular time control, and winning with this abysmally bad move... What a lucky guy!

Especially 30.Rfxf5 is clearly a refusal to play chess.

 

 

Uhohspaghettio1
pfren wrote:

How come a very early move which develops a piece without creating any weaknesses, and putting any pressure to the opponent as well, can be "abysmally bad"?

I don't see any pressure. Black just plays e6 and the bishop will generally have to move again. Claiming that is pressure is like claiming 2. Qh5 puts pressure on the opponent.

pfren wrote:

Super-GM Fedoseev playing against another 2600-class GM under a regular time control, and winning with this abysmally bad move... What a lucky guy!

Depends how you define "bad move". If a move gives away white's advantage on the second move you could argue it's abysmal.

You could also argue Bird's Opening is a bad move, but can have its place if you have heavy preparation and good plans for it.  

It's also possible that out of the thousands of strong chess players, there are a few that are a bit uhh... loopy, from time to time, right?   

"Psychology" on the other hand... as in "I'm going to play a known bad move because that will make my opponent psychologically get riled up"... I think that's just nonsense. 

 

nescitus

Against move orders without early ...e6 white can still transpose into Sozin Attack. Also, Grand Prix is possible. And as for "abysmally bad" lines, I'd prefer to reserve this term for 2.Ba6, 2.f3, 2.Bb5, 2.g4, 2.a4, 2.h4, 2.Nh3, 2.Bd3 and early queen sorties. Just about everything else is playable (yes, including 2.Be2 and 2.Na3)

pfren

2.Bc4 is certainly enough not white's best move, but it's not even "bad"by a long shot.

wornaki

Well, I'm far from being a titled player. Yet, I'm en-titled to my own opinion backed up by data. The move isn't good. The abysmal part is my take on it. In any case, let's be serious... There's hardly any reason to play 2.Bc4. Can it work? Sure. I just don't see the point in trying to be annoying in non competitive play.

Sred

A move that gives away like 1/3 pawn unit is not "abysmally bad", period.

wornaki

Well, I think it's a good reason never to play the Sicilian at lower levels, where it's so prevalent. Also, I dislike the Sicilians because of their open nature, so there you go. It becomes very annoying to have to face 2.Bc4 lines all the freaking time when you play non competitively and are hoping for something far more interesting. But alas, it seems being annoying is far more alluring for some.

Sred

I'm under the impression that "refuse to play chess" in this case means "refuse to play an open tactical game". If you don't like chess, why not specialize in puzzles?

wornaki

i hate tactics, which means I genuinely dislike puzzles, so I don't mean "refuse to play a tactical game". If anything it's more "refuse to play traditional good interesting lines"

Sred
wornaki wrote:

i hate tactics, which means I genuinely dislike puzzles, so I don't mean "refuse to play a tactical game". If anything it's more "refuse to play traditional good interesting lines"

What exactly makes a traditional line more interesting? And if it's not the potentially closed character of the game, what exactly annoys you about Bc4?

wornaki
Sred wrote:

What exactly makes a traditional line more interesting? And if it's not the potentially closed character of the game, what exactly annoys you about Bc4?

 

An interesting line in the Sicilian is one where you have a traditional fighting setup. Knights out, mainly, maybe with some luck a bind and maybe a bishop attacking good squares on the kingside. 2.Bc4 does none of that. Mind you, i didn't say 3.Bc4 or anything like that, I just said 2.Bc4.

Also, while I dislike open positions, I want to play a Sicilian for its open nature and then I get 2.Bc4. It makes me question the reasons why I even play chess...

wornaki
Optimissed wrote:

Than, c3 Sicilian, Grand Prix, open Sicilians with various "attacks" and many more are all legitimate tries to catch black out. Black shouldn't play the Sicilian if s/he's not prepared for it, that's true.

 

Everything is legitimate (as long as it's a legal move), but 2.Bc4 robs the Sicilian of its beauty. Imagine what the world of chess would be like if 2.Bc4 was popular in high level chess. Imagine no true Najdorfs, Dragons, Kans, no Sveshnikovs... nothing, just because white decided to play 2.Bc4. Wouldn't that upset you as a chess fan? I would be really upset.

Strangemover
wornaki wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Than, c3 Sicilian, Grand Prix, open Sicilians with various "attacks" and many more are all legitimate tries to catch black out. Black shouldn't play the Sicilian if s/he's not prepared for it, that's true.

 

Everything is legitimate (as long as it's a legal move), but 2.Bc4 robs the Sicilian of its beauty. Imagine what the world of chess would be like if 2.Bc4 was popular in high level chess. Imagine no true Najdorfs, Dragons, Kans, no Sveshnikovs... nothing, just because white decided to play 2.Bc4. Wouldn't that upset you as a chess fan? I would be really upset.

But this is not the case. Both at master level and amateur 2.Bc4 is rare compared to 2.Nf3 and the open Sicilians you mention (on this site you have faced 2.Nf3 in 11 games and 2.Bc4 in 2 games). So occasionally you have to play against something less common and not to your taste - this is why chess is such a rich, diverse and difficult game. 

wornaki

Yes, well, my experience has been different elsewhere. And my point remains, it's far more common than it should be. And it is horrible happy.png Not that it's an opinion that you have to hold yourself.