4... Nc6 vs. 4... Qb6 in the French Advance

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pfren
melvinbluestone wrote:
pfren wrote:

Notice also that 4...Bd7 is another move which renders the Kupreichik as harmless.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Bd7 5.Be3 Qb6 6.Qd2 (6.Qc2?! Nc6 and the queen is exposed there) 6...Bb5 and Black has succeeded in exchanging the "French" bishop without making any serious concession.

   This does look like a good idea for folks who can't stand that "French" B.

        I've even seen Bd7 played immediately after 3.e5 (games by Rapport, Christian Bauer, Igor Efimov, etc.). How sound is this idea, or is it just too early to try this on the third move?

 

3...Bd7 is played at the third move with 4.Nf3 a6 and ...Bb5 in mind (without ...c5). I wouldn't say it's bad, but after 5.c4 Black has to switch plans.

I think 3...Bd7 4.Nf3 c5 5.c3 a6!? is a better way to implement the idea of ...Bb5. I was almost sure that this is not good due to 6.Bd3, when 6...Bb5? drops a pawn after 7.Bxb5 axb5 8.dxc5! Bxc5 9.b4 followed by Na3, Qe2 etc. But Black can switch plans with 6...Nc6! when the bishop is not ideally placed at d3 (the d4 pawn is under pressure) and Black seems to have decent play.

HectorGray
pfren wrote:

Notice also that 4...Bd7 is another move which renders the Kupreichik as harmless.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Bd7 5.Be3 Qb6 6.Qd2 (6.Qc2?! Nc6 and the queen is exposed there) 6...Bb5 and Black has succeeded in exchanging the "French" bishop without making any serious concession.

 

Good point! I guess I can still try to play it but there's no way to truly escape the mainline Advance if I intend to add the Kupreichik to my repertoire.

 

 

 

ThrillerFan
Optimissed wrote:
LawTonz wrote:

Yes, you are correct. I looked at some other forums on the internet and also had a quick look into the database and Qb6 first seems to be more accurate if Black wants to reduce White's options e.g. preventing the Kupreichik with Be3 as you mentioned in OP.

Most of the time when I encountered this in my OTB tournaments people only use this move order to play Bd7-b5. I never saw people play Qb6 first just to transpose back to the mainline with Nc6. Most people play Nc6, Qb6 first.

A friend of mine from the chess club plays this on a regular basis which lead to me looking into this line a bit more. I like Be2 and if Black plays Bb5 you play c4. You only need to study a few lines after which I think the position is in my opinion easier to play for White.

The question is now whether this is relevant from a practical point of view. Most people will play Nc6 anyway. But of course that doesn't mean that this never comes up.

In this case I think it isn't that bad because the french advance can be learnt by knowing some fundamental ideas like the importants of the d4 and e5-squares which don't have to necessarily be controlled by pawns.

This article on the french advance mentions this at the beginning: http://charlottechesscenter.blogspot.com/2017/11/opening-preparation-beating-french-with.html

In general, if you know the most important strategic and tactical ideas of the french advance you will always be able to come up with good moves even if you haven't prepared against a certain move order. If you learn to understand when and why to take away from the center with dxc5 you will easily navigate through the countless of move orders black can play at you (dxc5 is necessary in some positions to prevent your d4-pawn from becoming a weakness ; never allow cxd4 followed by Nf5 if there is no concrete reason for it otherwise you might just lose the d4-pawn)

For common tactical patterns in the advance I can recommend IM Lopez's 7part series on common tactics in the french advance. He covers tactics but also covers the strategic ideas as often they are strongly connected. Note that the specific more orders aren't that important in the video. It's rather the pattern you should remember. Here is the link to the playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RVul5235f8&list=PLrTLUmPNfTCLtIc4vfBP_2is3E-7MLHAK

 

Regardless of whether you play the Kupreichik or a normal French advanced it is good to study the games of experts of the French Advanced to familiarize yourself with the most common middlegame idea. Examples for players that are relevant for the FA are Sveshnikov, Nimzowitsch, Grischuk and Shirov.

The move orders in their games are not that important try to focus on how they treat the middlegame or endgame. Full games are also good to get a full picture of how advantages get converted. You can also study the losses by these players to understand what could go wrong. If you have an annotated games collection with french advanced games than even better, unfortunately I don't know of any. Annotated games are scattered over many books.

This way you gain an understanding of the structure in general regardless of whether you specialize in certain subvariations or not.

Qb6 before Nc6 used to be considered more accurate and it used to be the normal move order. Not sure why since Be3 isn't very good.

 

Because even if 5.Be3 isn't great, it is one less thing to know.  If it were refuted, I would play 4...Nc6 and let White walk into it.  But since it is not refuted, just "not great", why give White the extra option if you play the 5...Qb6 lines anyway?

ThrillerFan
HectorGray wrote:
pfren wrote:

Notice also that 4...Bd7 is another move which renders the Kupreichik as harmless.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Bd7 5.Be3 Qb6 6.Qd2 (6.Qc2?! Nc6 and the queen is exposed there) 6...Bb5 and Black has succeeded in exchanging the "French" bishop without making any serious concession.

 

Good point! I guess I can still try to play it but there's no way to truly escape the mainline Advance if I intend to add the Kupreichik to my repertoire.

 

 

 

 

You may be able to avoid "certain" main lines, but you cannot avoid the 4...Nc6/5...Qb6 lines as Black can force it by flip-flopping the two moves, which is precisely what I myself do!

LawTonz

Yes, the bishop gets out but at the cost of several tempi. After a5 White can just develop the knight with a tempo to c3 and then Ne2 to castle next move. The weakening of the queenside is in my opinion not worth it for Black. Also usually trading early on d4 enables as you can see the development of the queen's knight to a more active square (in this case c3).

If Black is eager to exchange it Qb6, Bd7-b5 is I think a much better way to achieve this.

pfren
melvinbluestone wrote:
pfren wrote:
melvinbluestone wrote:
pfren wrote:

Notice also that 4...Bd7 is another move which renders the Kupreichik as harmless.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Bd7 5.Be3 Qb6 6.Qd2 (6.Qc2?! Nc6 and the queen is exposed there) 6...Bb5 and Black has succeeded in exchanging the "French" bishop without making any serious concession.

   This does look like a good idea for folks who can't stand that "French" B.

        I've even seen Bd7 played immediately after 3.e5 (games by Rapport, Christian Bauer, Igor Efimov, etc.). How sound is this idea, or is it just too early to try this on the third move?

 

3...Bd7 is played at the third move with 4.Nf3 a6 and ...Bb5 in mind (without ...c5). I wouldn't say it's bad, but after 5.c4 Black has to switch plans.

I think 3...Bd7 4.Nf3 c5 5.c3 a6!? is a better way to implement the idea of ...Bb5. I was almost sure that this is not good due to 6.Bd3, when 6...Bb5? drops a pawn after 7.Bxb5 axb5 8.dxc5! Bxc5 9.b4 followed by Na3, Qe2 etc. But Black can switch plans with 6...Nc6! when the bishop is not ideally placed at d3 (the d4 pawn is under pressure) and Black seems to have decent play.

     Thanks for the feedback. I like this idea of 4...c5 and then a6, when black can follow up with Nc6. It certainly seems a lot more flexible.

    But, why can't black still just exchange on d4 ( or c4 in the first line: 4...a6 5.c4 dxc4 6.Bxc4 Bb5) and then play Bb5? White is not forced to exchange, of course, he can retreat the B to c2. But then black has a5, preparing to go Ba6 if needed, or even throw in a check on b4 and then get the g8 knight out via e7.

 

    Either way, the cursed "French" bishop gets out.

 

This line is dangerous for Black. Sure, he has prevented white from castling (whenever white plays Nc3-e2 Black will gladly exchange the bishop for the knight) but the king is in no danger at e1, and the h1 rook will get into play by h2-h4 and Rh3.

Much better after 6.Bd3 is 6...Nc6 7.0-0 cxd4 8.cxd4 Qb6, and it is well known that the bishop is not well placed at d3 in such positions.