A French player's thoughts on the Caro-Kann

To be fair, I deliberately resurrected a few posts yesterday. While scrolling through all of my old forums (the new ones yesterday were TRASH and I was bored) I found a couple of hidden gems that I decided to bump and hopefully spark some new conversation. It worked beautifully.

As a French player, I play the Winawer. I also know how to play the Steinitz if necessary but I’m primarily a Winawer player. I play the 4… b6 Winawer, the Armenian (5… Ba5) Winawer, and the 7… 0-0 Winawer.

That’s interesting. It makes sense that Petrosian would play that way, as the h7-b1 diagonal is rarely occupied by good targets, and so either trading the weak bishop for a knight or keeping it in reserve after intentionally dropping a tempo is a very interesting concept.

Slower isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Look how slow the Ruy Lopez is. White moves his king bishop 4 consecutive times, just to get it to a visually cramped square on c2.

There are many openings where players take time to maneuver their pawns and pieces, in order to reach a more ideal setup. The idea that openings/defenses need to take "quick" action against their opponent is more of an antiquated concept.

These days, slow-boil openings/defenses are considered just as viable.

Look at ...a6 in the Najdorf - once upon a time, this move would've been considered an outrage.

Or look at the slow unfolding of White's position in the King's Indian Attack - once upon a time, chess masters would've viewed White's coiled development in the KIA as an insult to principled chess.

The list can go on and on ...

Btw did you know that the master level scheveningen causes outrage because of 6. g4, But there is actually a PERFECT stockfish approved defense against that?

Bonjour, tu est ne se Français pas!

If like french defence structures against the advanced var 1.e4 c6 2d4 d5 3e5 then 3...c5 is a good option 4pxp e6 gives a tempo down french position but it isn't one of the better white tries, and it isn't so easy to prove an advantage for white even a tempo up. The book "Keep it simple for black" covers the options quite well.

I'm kind of glad you did, because the C-K is too often used as a safety blanket opening by mid-amateur players who have no real aspirations to improve beyond that level. The French Defense, by comparison, all but forces one to improve to near-Expert level at the minimum.

Petrosian is the only World Champion who used the C-K to any meaningful extent (playing it 5 times against Spassky in their 1966 title match), and he wouldn't play anything which wasn't sound. The point of this thread is that because I play the French primarily the C-K evolves very differently when I play it versus when it is played against me.

The French (1834) is the big brother, pre-dating the Caro-Kann (1886) by about 50 years. The French is more mature, bolder, prepared for danger, and prepared to cope with pressure. The Caro-Kann, by comparison, is timid, cautious, and fearful of getting hurt.

I'm taking this one before @ThrillerFan does. The bad bishop in the French is an illusion, it has a useful role to play and can be liberated by force, no matter how much white has "booked up" on it. White is stuck defending d4 for the duration of the opening, since if that pawn falls white loses. White is giving up the initiative in exchange for space.

You have to play the French correctly, understanding the dynamics of the center, before you can play the French or the Caro-Kann to best effect. At the end of the day, the Caro-Kann is a full tempo slower than the French, which with best play white can gain real advantage from.

Fischer seemed to have a lot of trouble breaking into the french strucutre when he played agianst it, however he didint seem to have this issue agianst the caro. is this kinda contradictory to what you said @ThrillerFan

i went from 700-1500 in 3 months by playing the french

Fischer excelled on the initiative, and struggled most when forced to defend. That's why the French troubled him more than the Caro-Kann, because in the former white simply can't maintain the initiative, white simply must spend tempo shoring up d4. Give a good attacker time, and they'll find a way to exploit a given position. There's no such thing as an opening position without weakness.

At the intermediate level, I think the Caro-Kann is a better resource due to blacks' ability to quickly develop their pieces without locking anything in early. This follows developing principles recommended to beginners and intermediate players. I also think that the Bottniks-Carls variation (recommended by people like GothamChess) is a great line against the Advance variation, as you get to immediately strike at the center which works great at the sub-1500/1600 level, where the majority of non-club players lie. The pawns are rarely able to be defended in my experience as intermediate players struggle to deal with the weak center, and the line can get white out of theory often as well. (Especially if they had prepared a Tal variation.) I also think it deals with the space disadvantage quite well. Of course, white can get a solid variation if they know the theory, but Intermediate players rarely do extensive opening studies in non-e5 positions. Then again, I am not a very good player so obviously feel free to critique my response. I also haven't studied the French too much, but I do know that white has some tricky lines with the Poisoned Pawn on d4 in the Paulsen Attack lines of the AV.

*Insert angry yelling*

i have some funny pet line agianst the botvinnik carls

french are better at defending the alapin diemer gambit than caros are the essentially same mieses gambit. I love seeing 1...c6 now

Caro Kann player: Well you play the French and the Caro-Kann

French Player: Yes

Caro Kann Player: What are your thoughts on the Caro-Kann?

French Player: Its a very weird Slavic / Slav-like way to fight for the center . If we rotate the board then ..... oh its a French . Ahh, this is just a reverse French .

@Nightfall023 - That advice for the intermediate player is a mental trap, in my opinion. Yes, black can get his pieces out, but if he does, they're poorly coordinated, and black is neglecting the fight for the center, which is crucial in both the C-K and the French. You're just inviting white to roll with his center pawns, which is a good way to lose slowly.

The basic point I've been making here is that players should get familiar with the right way to play the French Defense (that is, counterattacking in the center) before they try the Caro-Kann. The latter is a much more potent defense if black focuses on central pressure rather than piece mobility.

It's exactly the opposite. The French defense is more dynamic as counterplay against the center arrives one tempo earlier while the Caro-Kann is more defensive because it prioritizes piece armony vs counter-attack in the center. In the Caro the central reaction comes a tempo later. Black players playing the French defense needs to be more tactical altert and play more forcingly because if they don't achieve some concessions by White then , in the long run, the bad bishop and the lack of space will tell. In the Caro-Kann instead Black can play more of a waiting game where he will try to take advantage of the weakness that White might have created by trying to exploit his lead in development.

If your French Defense opponent plays the Rubinstein Variation (3. ..dxe4), as I do, then neither 3. Nc3 nor 3. Nd2 is a challenge at all. The center explodes and the white pawn on d4 remains weak on an open file. It is a vastly underrated weapon for black. At my local club, I mainly see the Advance, Exchange, and since a former State Champion dusted it off, the Schlecter Variation (3. Bd3), since no one wants to face the Rubinstein.