I like this as black after c3...
A waiting move in the Sicilian
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KillaBeez wrote:
I still think it is better than the normal Alapin. That is a matter of debate. There is flexibility, surprise value, and eventual preparation of d4 without extending your center with e5. I take it you are a Dragon player TonightOnly, otherwise you wouldn't be so pessimistic and critical. Anybody who likes an opening tends to defend that opening with their life. I do that with the French Defense sometimes.
I do play the dragon and I love the dragon, but that has nothing to do with why I am being critical. I am not trying to defend anything, I am just trying to test your claims.
My goal is to try to knock down anything anyone erects and see what is left standing. This is the general strategy in the chess community and there is no reason to take it personally. Honestly, you should get used to it. You will probably encounter it a lot in chess and probably in whatever career you go into.
I got a degree in philosophy and we took the same approach in all my classes. When someone comes up with an argument or theory, the first thing to do is test it against every conceivable counter-argument to see if it holds up. This is how we get closer to the truth (or find what the critical lines are in an opening).
That is what I am trying to do here. The only reason I am interested is because I think it is a playable line and I want to be ready to face it. This has nothing to do with the dragon or anything. It is white who decides to play the open. I play the Sicilian, which is nothing more than 1...c5. If I find out what the dangerous lines in your 'delayed Alapin' are, then I will be one step closer to mastering the Sicilian.
Point taken. I would have prefered it if you would have said that first. 
There's one game that comes to mind in that variation. In 1997, the Tilburg tournament had Garry Kasparov as its big favorite, and the rest of the tournament was filled with young and upcoming talents. It was surprisingly won by Peter Svidler, his big breakthrough, and it was a small sensation when he beat Kasparov.
If my memory doesn't fail me, Kasparov's second Yuri Dokhoian said something along the lines of "What is the world coming to, if we have to start preparing for 3.c3..."
I just found out that the game is analyzed by Seirawan here: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/yaz18.pdf
Thanks for the info! Nice game!
IrishChessWizard posted that line in his blog. But he didn't waste time with h3.
4.h3 is a good move, and is definitely not a waste of time. If white plays Bd3 right away, then black has 4...Bg4, which scores well.
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
So my conclusion is that this line is very profitable to play against opponent who very wants to win, that will make him to pay very big price to arrange any attack. If opponent is not mind the draw
Well, if you are looking for a draw, you could just play 1.c4 or 1.d4.
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
TonightOnly wrote:
If white plays Bd3 right away, then black has 4...Bg4, which scores well.
But white's queen will be good at f3, so after h2-h3 black would lost tempo with Bg4-h5 and after Nc1-d2-f1-g3 white would be placed good enough for attack, while black again has a choice of exchange at f3 or lose tempo again.
Hmmm, I'm not really sure what you're saying here. The Queen is not at f3, it is the knight at f3. Also, after 4.h3, 4...Bg4 would not just lose tempo, it would lose a bishop.
EDIT:
Nevermind, I think I know what you are saying. You should include move numbers.
If I understand correctly, you are saying that after 4.Bd3, 4...Bg4 is a waste of a move since white can just play 5.h3. Well, 5.h3 is a popular move, but both 5...Bh5 and 5...Bxf3 score well. 5...Bh5 does not waste a tempo because white spent a tempo to play h3 as well. 5...Bxf3 scores even better, and I think this is partly because white won't have the immediate resources to make the claim to the center that he was envisioning and partly because the Queen is misplaced on f3. Why did you think that the Queen belongs there?
White has ideas of playing Bc2, d3, Nd2-f1-g3 in conjunction with h3 against Bg4. While this line is fairly slow, it is similar to a closed Ruy Lopez in the lines where Black plays an early Bg4.
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
TonightOnly wrote:
...the Queen is misplaced on f3. Why did you think that the Queen belongs there?
So early queen belongs to nowhere. But at f3 it is normal (also later rook can take d1), and after this the main goal is achieved - black almost cant win. You saying it scores good - but good only for equalizing, that is the point. :)
Are you saying that the goal of this opening seems to be to offer equalization in exchange for a solid position that offers little counterplay? If so, I guess that is probably right, but saying that black can't win is way off base. In the 3 databases I checked this against, black scored over 50% in all of them and although draws were common, there were still decisive games, and black had the greater share of these.
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
TonightOnly wrote:
If I understand correctly, you are saying that after 4.Bd3, 4...Bg4 is a waste of a move since white can just play 5.h3. Well, 5.h3 is a popular move, but both 5...Bh5 and 5...Bxf3 score well. 5...Bh5 does not waste a tempo because white spent a tempo to play h3 as well. 5...Bxf3 scores even better, and I think this is partly because white won't have the immediate resources to make the claim to the center that he was envisioning
Also white's b1 knight dont need to go at g3 if black exchanged at f3. If black play Bc8-g4-h5 and later Bh5-g6 or defending that bishop (after Nf1-g3) then black spend 3 tempo for that and achieve's nothing valuable, while white stand good. You are saying that white also spend moves for b1 knight and h2-h3 - but that is useful moves, while bishop at g6 or echange at h5 gives nothing for black. And 4.h2-h3 (or even 3.h2-h3) probably popular because players want to win as white.
Well, for me to be able to respond to all of this, you will need to include variations with move numbers or somehow explain better the order of the moves you are talking about.
As far as ...Bg4 'achieving nothing valuable' it pinned the knight. I don't know why the bishop should be expected to do more to justify the three-tempi move to g6. White not getting his ideal center seems more than enough to justify this maneuver. I am not sure what variation you are talking about where the white knight gets to g3 (all the intervening moves will be important to this discussion), but during all that time, black will have prevented d4 from being played.
Is this the kind of position you guys are talking about? I know these aren't the best moves for Black, but just the overall White setup.
Yes, I think that is the kind of line that Catalyst is claiming makes the 4...Bg4 move look silly. A more critical and popular line would be this, though:
So now, black's light-squared bishop has spent three tempi 'just to end up on g6.' However, we can see the effect this pin has had on the center of the chess board. Compare black's claim to the center in this position to the claim he would have if he had allowed an early d4. At the shredderchess database (which is only human grandmaster games), black scores 58.8% from this position in 17 games.
Yeah, I probably should have let White gain a tempo with Nf1 before castling. I am just so used to the Ruy Lopez. I think the position is roughly equal here. This would likely not be the type of position a Sicilian player would be accustomed to. The onus is just now on White to try to come away with something from the opening.
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
TonightOnly wrote:
In the 3 databases I checked this against, black scored over 50% in all of them and although draws were common, there were still decisive games, and black had the greater share of these.
Which line has more than 50%?
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.c3 Nf6 4.Bd3 Bg4
And I thought this topic was dead! :)
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
Thanks for that. But this is only equalizing, nobody has advantage. I didnt claim that if you want to win as white you should go for this line. :) In that 58% black wins how many? 8%? 12%? :) The point is that many times players want to secure draw, that is the only thing i was talking about.
Black won 6 of the 17, drew 8 and lost 3. So, there were more decisive games than not.
I think that if you are looking to secure a draw, there are better options. In general, the less developed the theory of an opening is, the fewer draws it will produce.
The key to getting an advantage in the opening usually relies on knowing the ensuing positions better than the opponent. For example, if I get to a slightly favorable position and I don't know how to handle it, my advantage will likely evaporate in the middlegame. If I reach an equal position that I know very well, I have a very good chance at securing a middlegame edge based upon this knowledge. Although these points do not necessarily apply at the top level, it is true for almost all non-masters.
At least there is a way for your opponent to go wrong at no real cost.