About space advantages

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blueemu
tygxc wrote:

#61
Letelier was wrong in gaining space with e5.

By the way in your example game 12 Bxf6? cedes the bishop's pair without compensation. The later attack does not come from more space, but from an unopposed dark square bishop.

In the position that he played Bxf6, his Knight was just about as good as my Bishop, which was confined behind my d-Pawn.

White's mistake were more likely Qg3 (seriously compromising his own Bishop) and Rd4 (a tactical oversight, since he thought my Queen could be taken).

But short of time in such a complex position, it's hard to be too critical of tactical oversights.

thelondonsystrn
tygxc wrote:

#53
I showed a game where white had a space advantage but no firm grip over the center and lost.
Can you show a game won on space advantage alone?
#54
I quoted Capablanca verbatim. I presume a violent attack that succeeds = an attack that wins the game.
#55
I presented a game where white had a space advantage but no firm grip over the center and white lost because of that. So that game is a counterexample.
#51
The advice by the great thinkers Steinitz, Lasker, Capablanca, Nimzovich is to first seize the center and only then start the attack. If the center is shaky, then an attack is bound to fail as the opponent can counterstrike in the center.

Counterattacking is part and parcel of an attack, if you attack, you should also expect a counterattack unless you can consolidate a win from the onset. Attacking and counterattacking is all part of the bargaining and trading of advantages that stem from each position and the next subsequent position.

thelondonsystrn
blueemu wrote:
tygxc wrote:

#53
I showed a game where white had a space advantage but no firm grip over the center and lost.
Can you show a game won on space advantage alone?

Letelier vs Fischer? What space advantage?

For instance, at move 11 Black (not White!) is ahead 14 to 12 in space. Even after retreating his Bishop back to e6, Black is still ahead 13 to 12.

Maybe you should count again?


 

Regarding "show me a game where a player won with a space advantage without a central advantage...

These will naturally be rare since dominating the center allows you to extend your pressure into multiple areas of the board, and normally leads to a space advantage.

I can show you a game where I couldn't claim any particular advantage in the center, but won through exploiting a space advantage.

FIRST, though, we had better make sure that you know HOW to win with a space advantage.

If you control more space than the opponent then you will typically have more freedom of maneuver... he is cramped, and you are not. So you proceed by alternating threats on widely separated parts of the board... K-side, center, Q-side, back to the K-side... and since you have more freedom of maneuver, his pieces will start getting in each other's way, and interfering with each other. At minimum, they will be forced into non-optimal positions to counter your threats.

A series of such alternating threats will cause the opponent's pieces to lose time and (typically) be forced back in order to cover each weak point in turn. You thereby transform your space advantage into a time advantage... and every experienced player knows how to exploit a time advantage: you attack, and look for combinations.

The sequence is:

Space Advantage => Alternation => Time Advantage => Combination.


 

With that method in mind, play over the game in post # 19 of this thread:

GM Larry Evans' method of static analysis - Chess Forums - Chess.com

... and pay particular attention to the annotations and to the METHOD that Black uses to convert his space advantage into a win.

How do you attack when you have a time advantage?

blueemu
thelondonsystrn wrote:

How do you attack when you have a time advantage?

Did you read my posts in the first two pages of that thread?

GM Larry Evans' method of static analysis - Chess Forums - Chess.com

The method for exploiting each type of advantage is given there.

Laskersnephew

thelondonsystrn wrote: "Trading pieces is just as helpful for the side that is ahead in space as it is for the side that is behind in space."

This is just laughably wrong! 

thelondonsystrn
blueemu wrote:
thelondonsystrn wrote:

How do you attack when you have a time advantage?

Did you read my posts in the first two pages of that thread?

GM Larry Evans' method of static analysis - Chess Forums - Chess.com

The method for exploiting each type of advantage is given there.

The side who is behind in time is supposed to trade off pieces, how can the side ahead in time attack when his opponent is attempting to trade off pieces?

blueemu
thelondonsystrn wrote:
blueemu wrote:
thelondonsystrn wrote:

How do you attack when you have a time advantage?

Did you read my posts in the first two pages of that thread?

GM Larry Evans' method of static analysis - Chess Forums - Chess.com

The method for exploiting each type of advantage is given there.

The side who is behind in time is supposed to trade off pieces, how can the side ahead in time attack when his opponent is attempting to trade off pieces?

The side behind in SPACE is supposed to trade off pieces.

You should be attacking in the area where you have superiority. If your pieces dominate that part of the board, it will be difficult for the opponent to get his pieces into position to offer exchanges.

thelondonsystrn
blueemu wrote:
thelondonsystrn wrote:
blueemu wrote:
thelondonsystrn wrote:

How do you attack when you have a time advantage?

Did you read my posts in the first two pages of that thread?

GM Larry Evans' method of static analysis - Chess Forums - Chess.com

The method for exploiting each type of advantage is given there.

The side who is behind in time is supposed to trade off pieces, how can the side ahead in time attack when his opponent is attempting to trade off pieces?

The side behind in SPACE is supposed to trade off pieces.

You should be attacking in the area where you have superiority. If your pieces dominate that part of the board, it will be difficult for the opponent to get his pieces into position to offer exchanges.

"Behind in Time: Be careful! Watch the WHOLE board. Calculate... and watch out for enemy combinations and threats. Try to exchange off the most threatening enemy pieces, or at least try to gain back some Time by threatening exchanges. Operate with economy of weakness... try not to defend by pushing Pawns unless the other options lead to disaster."

When behind time, is it difficult to threaten exchanging pieces? Is the idea for the side behind in time to threaten the exchange of pieces as opposed to actually carrying out the exchange? In other words it is difficult to actually get the side the is ahead in time to actually commit the exchanges, it's just the threat itself being placed is enough to limit the side that is ahead in time so that the side that is behind can gain more time back?

blueemu

You can sometimes force an enemy attacking piece to retreat (or at least, to relocate) by offering an exchange. This might gain you back a bit of the lost time.

In this game, my opponent sacrificed two pieces for a violent attack. I returned one piece and gained back some time by offering an exchange (which would leave him still one piece down if accepted).

Moves 18, 19 and 20.

A Heroic Defense in the Sicilian Najdorf - Kids, don't try this at home! - Chess Forums - Chess.com

thelondonsystrn
blueemu wrote:

You can sometimes force an enemy attacking piece to retreat (or at least, to relocate) by offering an exchange. This might gain you back a bit of the lost time.

In this game, my opponent sacrificed two pieces for a violent attack. I returned one piece and gained back some time by offering an exchange (which would leave him still one piece down if accepted).

Moves 18, 19 and 20.

A Heroic Defense in the Sicilian Najdorf - Kids, don't try this at home! - Chess Forums - Chess.com

Being ahead in space doesn't always mean ahead in time, but being ahead in time always means being ahead in space.

If one is ahead in time, actually trading off pieces is bad for the side that is ahead because trading off pieces is bad for the side that is ahead in space, is this correct?

blueemu

The only (common) times when exchanges are good for the side with the advantage are:

1) If your advantage would persist (or even grow larger) through a transition into an endgame. For example, if you are a couple of Pawns ahead, every exchange brings you closer to a won endgame.

or 2) If you are trading off a key enemy defensive piece, the loss of which will leave him helpless to defend against your remaining pieces.

or 3) If you can eliminate the opponent's chances for counter-play by exchanging off that specific piece, while still retaining a winning attack or endgame.

thelondonsystrn
blueemu wrote:

The only (common) times when exchanges are good for the side with the advantage are:

1) If your advantage would persist (or even grow larger) through a transition into an endgame. For example, if you are a couple of Pawns ahead, every exchange brings you closer to a won endgame.

or 2) If you are trading off a key enemy defensive piece, the loss of which will leave him helpless to defend against your remaining pieces.

or 3) If you can eliminate the opponent's chances for counter-play by exchanging off that specific piece, while still retaining a winning attack or endgame.

1. Does this apply to positions in the middle game where the side with the disadvantage will fall right into a losing endgame if they happen to cede the side with the advantage of their advantages by trading off pieces?

2. Is a key enemy defensive piece another way as describing a piece that is currently defending their own king, pieces or pawns in which if they were without it they would be unable to defend their pieces, pawns, or king?

3. Exchanging off which specific piece?

blueemu
thelondonsystrn wrote:

1. Does this apply to positions in the middle game where the side with the disadvantage will fall right into a losing endgame if they happen to cede the side with the advantage of their advantages by trading off pieces?

2. Is a key enemy defensive piece another way as describing a piece that is currently defending their own king, pieces or pawns in which if they were without it they would be unable to defend their pieces, pawns, or king?

3. Exchanging off which specific piece?

1. Yes.

2. A key enemy defensive piece is one that is carrying a disproportionate share of the defensive load. For instance, if the attacker has four different potential threats and one enemy piece is defending against three of them.

3) Suppose that the opponent's only realistic chance for counter-attack involves penetrating your position with his Queen (all by itself) and repeatedly giving check. Trading off his Queen would prevent that counter-play.

llama51

Trading when ahead, off the top of my head... let me try this way of organizing it:

1) Good tactically when it's a good tactic tongue.png

2) Good positionally when piece activity increases for you (careful to pay attention to the pieces remaining on the board). For example you might trade an active piece for a "passive" defender, the result of which lets your remaining pieces spring to life.

3) Good strategically when your strengths are static (i.e. long term) or your opponent's strengths are dynamic (i.e. short term). Long term example is a material advantage or superior endgame. Short term example is initiative.

llama51
tygxc wrote:

#46
My point is that space advantage means nothing, but control of the center is important.

Well, again:

1) It's been a tenet of chess teaching for over 100 years.

2) It doesn't take much to independently derive the utility of a space advantage from first principles.

x-0356360157

S

thelondonsystrn
darkprincess6666 wrote:

S

No one cares.