Well, I do not follow Dzindzi's Roman's Lab videos (I have way better things to do than following childish Rybka variations, where the author Perelsteyn deliberately omits things, including his own games...) so I couldn't know.
acc dragon: 7...Qa5 Vs 8...a5
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7.Bb5+ is not dangerous at all, but you couldn't know by following Dzindzi videos. Black should answer 7...Nd7 with a good game.
About half a year ago I seriously thought about switching from my old favorite Pirc to the (hyper-)accelerated Dragon. Everyone and his grandma seemed to think that the Pirc is "refuted" while the somewhat similar Dragon was supposed to hit 1.e4 hard. I soon found, though, that not only would I have to memorize *lots* of theory to get the switch working, it also seemed to me that the Yugoslav attack leads to much more dangerous situations than the somewhat analogous 150-attack vs the Pirc.
Both the Pirc and the Accelerated Dragon have a lot of theory to memorize.
And- the real problem with the Accelerated Dragon is the Maroczy Bind, while the real problem with the Pirc/Modern is the Austrian Attack. Simple as that. In both instances, the problem is purely positional: Black is short of space, with no active counterplay.
pfren wrote:
And- the real problem with the Accelerated Dragon is the Maroczy Bind, while the real problem with the Pirc/Modern is the Austrian Attack. Simple as that. In both instances, the problem is purely positional: Black is short of space, with no active counterplay.
But while I personally felt quite uncomfortable seeing the Maroczy Bind variations unfold, I actually like the mind-boggling 5...c5 variants of the Austrian. It doesn't seem to me at all that Black has no counterplay here. Rather the problem is that the lines are so sharp that Black and White both have chances to go down fast and therefore one has to repeat the lines constantly to not forget them. And there's the real problem: All this memorizing and training is for naught because at my level of play nobody really seems to want to try the Austrian Attack against the Pirc. They either develop along classical lines (mostly by general principles I guess) or crank out Be3-Qd2-Bh6 like all those "anti-pirc"-guides recommend. Its quite the same with the KID actually. I plow through Gallagher etc, but then rarely anybody seems to even want to play 2.c4 ...
There are no "mind-boggling" continuations in the Austrian, if White ignores the old 6.Bb5+ variation and goes instead for the "simple" modern 6.dc5, which promises a stable small advantage with minimal risk.
pfren wrote:
There are no "mind-boggling" continuations in the Austrian, if Black ignores the old 6.Bb5+ variation and goes instead for the "simple" modern 6.dc5, which promises a stable advantage with minimal risk.
You mean if White does that? The critical line seems to me 6.dxc5, Qa5+ 7. Qd4 when Vigus says that 7...dxc5, 8.Bb5+, Qxb5 9.Qxf6, Bxf6 10.Nxb5, Na6 gives Black sufficient play because White - while he now can play e5 and shut out the bishop for the time being - in return has to either give up the bishop pair or place his queen awkwardly. Admittedly I don't know what the newest verdict on the issue of the 7.Qd4-line is ...
Umm, does Vigus mention 8.Qc4! which is the critical move, as far as I am concerned? 8.Bb5+ is just a mistake.
The pawn sac 7.Qd4 0-0! seems like the right answer to me, but I fail to find total equality for Black after the principled 8.ed6.
very good stuff by pfren (including the comment that perelshteyn definitely omits best responses on purpose)
pfren wrote:
Umm, does Vigus mention 8.Qc4! which is the critical move, as far as I am concerned? 8.Bb5+ is just a mistake.
The pawn sac 7.Qd4 0-0! seems like the right answer to me, but I fail to find total equality for Black after the principled 8.ed6.
He says that the pawn sac 7...0-0 8.cxd6 was refuted by the game Pilavov-Zimmerman (Russian Teamchampionship 2006). And yes, Vigus analyzes 8.Qc4. The line goes:
That very game (Pilavov- Zimmermann) and the following exchange sac is also mentioned as an effective refutation in a recent book by Andrew Greet (Beating Unusual Chess Defences).
Greet says that 11.Nxb5? in the above diagram is wrong and suggests instead 11.Bxb5 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Bxd5 13.Be3 with a white edge.
Hmm, I must get this book - it is from last year so probably there's nothing more up to date atm. In the line continuing with 11.Bxb5, after 13. Be3 at least I would have something of a plan as Black: I would want to cement my centralized bishop with e6, but for that I'd need to play c4 beforehand (preventing him to play c4 himself). Then his bishop on b5 must go so I can free my knight, thus a6 and b5 are on the menue as well. And of course there's also the break f6. I don't want to pretend I am a very good evaluator of positions, but I wouldn't feel too bad here ... at least not bad enough to give up the Pirc and learn something completely new against 1.e4 at my age. (Just for fun I'm dabbling a bit in 1...b6 and 1...d5, but those should be even less likely to equalize in all lines).
omertatao wrote:
fritzricky wrote:
The accelerated dragon may be static in the main line, but if white trys to get into a Yugoslav attack (and it does happen) the accelerated dragon can explode into life and equalise for black. Your likely to catch out at least one person by this!
this is true, but you have to know the accelerated precisely to take advantage of it, I should say if you don't know the stuff down cold, it's really easy to forget something and all of sudden find yourself in a yugoslav attack saying to yourself "he's not supposed to be able to do that" Im sure this isn't something professionals worry about, but for people just learning it, believe me, it can happen. people will try and trick you with move orders. the thing with accelerated dragon in my experience, I'm not a professional, just some guy who is learning it, you have to play it extremely precisely, for two reasons, if you don't, you'll get killed or if your opponent errs you won't get the continuation that equalizes or more. that's the thing in my opinion, not only does black have to play it precisely, white does too, if white doesn't play the exact right moves they can get stomped in the opening, and this happens more frequently than you would suspect at club level. probably doesn't happen at IM/GM level.
I found looking at the accelerated dragon games of GM Vladamir Malakhov very helpful, he has played it a bunch and I think his conclusion was something along the lines that at the IMGM level it's like a reliable drawing weapon or something, but real difficult to get any type of meaningful advantage, I think I read this in an interview he gave. but if something is a reliable drawing weapon at the IMGM level, it's probably more than solid at club level, even right up to around like 2000 or expert, maybe even a little above this. right? that's what I think anyway.
though i have not played the mainlines in this opening much, i've never found any dangerous (for black) trick move orders to get into the yugoslav attack (and i don't think there are any, but please inform me if iam wrong) theory wise, the accelerated dragon isn't all that bad, and the big advantage of the accelerated dragon is that it is NOT meant to be sharp and i cannot find any exceptions to this except maybe for a dubious one a friend played on me. As for the opening's statistics, i have to agree that this opening is a drawing weapon. All in all, it's probably easier to play than some sicilians, not a bad opening at all. Also, i thank you for suggesting GM Vladamir Malakhov as a good person to look up to for this opening.
Sure enough, Malakhov and Tiviakov are the main authorities on the Accelerated Dragon, but both are very strong positional players and can cope well with the intricacies of the Maroczy.
thenazgul wrote:
1. regarding roman dzindzi's videos! well, i have most of his DVDs (including 66 and 67) but i prefer to have another source to rely on! (nothing personal, but his DVDs are a bit more commercial than educational! IMHO, it's like doing anything, just to sell more copies! ... i know that all those who make DVDs, have commercial targets, but i mean, if you compare Chessbase DVDs, Foxy series, and Roman's Labs, you will find that roman's quality is the poorest). so to sum up, i prefer to base my studies on other sources!
P.S: please note that in the book he did: " chess openings for black, explained" , he recommended playing the a5 variation instead of Qa5(the variation recommended in his DVD)", in addition to that, if you search for the same book for the white side, you will see a lot of critics done to this book because of many inaccurate analysis and refutable variations he gave!
2.regarding the level, well, i don't have a FIDE rating yet, mainly because im a little bit new to chess, but my level is around 2000-2050 (don't judge my rating here, i started playing last week, so it's gonna be higher soon hopefully)
3. regarding the move order dzindzi suggests to avoid the maroczy, he talks about it very briefly and says that black has good position, and he didn't even bother to talk about the variation in igor miladinovic's game, he only talked baout taking c6 after Be3, Bg7, and then Nxc6, bxc6, e5, here he says Nd5 is playable, (this move was also recommended by andrew martin in his foxy video on the acc dragon) but he continues and says that he prefers Ng8... and gives few quick lines, and that's it, no real deep analysis. (P.S: when he finished talking about this variation, he said that "if you feel that there are any sidelines not covered in this video, you can pick up any book about the acc dragon and find more analysis there) so there were no special analysis with rybka regarding this line!
4. regarding what WGM pogonina said, its true, at a much lower level than IMs/GMs, all these theoretical statements are not very applicable, but anyway, i prefer to chose something that is good to use against a 1200 or a 2500 player! that's better than wasting my time now, and then later on when my opponents become stronger/close to masters level, find out that i have to change my repertoire.
I suggest you go watch that dvd again because what you wrote here is not accurate at all, he has a whole line, and a bunch of analysis after Ng8, I suppose you just don't remember, he obviously checked his analysis of these lines with the use of his super computer and rybka. why are you trying to mislead people? (weird)
you are also taking things he stated out of context/and twisting it. (strange)
and his book "chess openings for black explained" is actually recommended by IM Shahade as one of the few opening books actually worth something.
I don't know what you have against GM Dzindzichasvili, but whatever it is, this is ridiculous. absurd really. I've seen the foxy dvds as well, and they didn't strike me as better than Roman's Lab in any way. both are quality chess dvds. what is your beef? (weird).
and by the way, Dzindzi would destroy you.
fritzricky wrote:
omertatao wrote:
fritzricky wrote:
The accelerated dragon may be static in the main line, but if white trys to get into a Yugoslav attack (and it does happen) the accelerated dragon can explode into life and equalise for black. Your likely to catch out at least one person by this!
this is true, but you have to know the accelerated precisely to take advantage of it, I should say if you don't know the stuff down cold, it's really easy to forget something and all of sudden find yourself in a yugoslav attack saying to yourself "he's not supposed to be able to do that" Im sure this isn't something professionals worry about, but for people just learning it, believe me, it can happen. people will try and trick you with move orders. the thing with accelerated dragon in my experience, I'm not a professional, just some guy who is learning it, you have to play it extremely precisely, for two reasons, if you don't, you'll get killed or if your opponent errs you won't get the continuation that equalizes or more. that's the thing in my opinion, not only does black have to play it precisely, white does too, if white doesn't play the exact right moves they can get stomped in the opening, and this happens more frequently than you would suspect at club level. probably doesn't happen at IM/GM level.
I found looking at the accelerated dragon games of GM Vladamir Malakhov very helpful, he has played it a bunch and I think his conclusion was something along the lines that at the IMGM level it's like a reliable drawing weapon or something, but real difficult to get any type of meaningful advantage, I think I read this in an interview he gave. but if something is a reliable drawing weapon at the IMGM level, it's probably more than solid at club level, even right up to around like 2000 or expert, maybe even a little above this. right? that's what I think anyway.
though i have not played the mainlines in this opening much, i've never found any dangerous (for black) trick move orders to get into the yugoslav attack (and i don't think there are any, but please inform me if iam wrong) theory wise, the accelerated dragon isn't all that bad, and the big advantage of the accelerated dragon is that it is NOT meant to be sharp and i cannot find any exceptions to this except maybe for a dubious one a friend played on me. As for the opening's statistics, i have to agree that this opening is a drawing weapon. All in all, it's probably easier to play than some sicilians, not a bad opening at all. Also, i thank you for suggesting GM Vladamir Malakhov as a good person to look up to for this opening.
obviously white can only get a yugoslav attack if black plays carelessly and errs. which is what I wrote. I didn't write that there was a way white can get a yugoslav if black plays everything accurately. if you don't know everything, just starting to learn the opening, you can easily make a mistake and suddenly find yourself with white castled queenside launching a yugoslavish attack on your fianchettoed kingside, which is essentially what I wrote, and is all I was saying.
thenazgul wrote:
pfren wrote:
With due respect, this is about another variation: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Nxc6 bc6 8.e5 and now both the pawn sac 8...Nd5 and 8...Ng8 are playable. Factly, a game of mine as Black with 8...Nd5 against FM Wagner is featured in a couple of theory books (it ended in a draw). I did not play something extravagant, just followed a sound analysis by GM Petursson.
In the above variation, 7...Nd5 just drops a pawn for nothing. Do not mix apples with oranges.
i know, thats what i said, dzindzi's analysis are for a different variation! my post was addressed to omertatao because he said: "I don't believe you and neither does GM Dzindzi and Rybka (running on 16 cores), if I'm not mistaken there's a very playable line after e5."
:)
I think both you have confused and twisted what I was trying to say. also sense animosity, don't know why, you don't even know me, but ok. all I was saying was that black can avoid the maroczy if white makes a certain move as opposed to another and after playing this way ( a Nf6 instead of a Bg7 in certain positions forcing Nc3) there are very playable lines. I was not saying that there is a way to completely avoid the maroczy if you play accelerated dragon, because there isn't.
you wrote you "just started playing" "started playing last week" so I assumed this to mean you didn't have all of roman's labs, foxy, chessbase dvds and weren't, as you write, 2000 elo. was assuming you were like 1600ish player trying to learn a bit of opening theory or something.
in any case what I wrote is true, if white allows it, black can play Nf6 instead of Bg7 and force Nc3 with a completely playable position while avoiding the maroczy bind.
wow. can you feel the hate tonight. jesus.
pfren wrote:
7.Bb5+ is not dangerous at all, but you couldn't know by following Dzindzi videos. Black should answer 7...Nd7 with a good game.
not true is all I am going to say. watch the dvd for yourself.
pfren wrote:
Well, I do not follow Dzindzi's Roman's Lab videos (I have way better things to do than following childish Rybka variations, where the author Perelsteyn deliberately omits things, including his own games...) so I couldn't know.
wow. obviously this guy has some kind of hatred for Dzindzichasvili and Perelsteyn? I find this rather strange. did they snub you or something? what's the deal? you are mischaracterizing the work both of them have done and you know it.
With due respect, this is about another variation: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Nxc6 bc6 8.e5 and now both the pawn sac 8...Nd5 and 8...Ng8 are playable. Factly, a game of mine as Black with 8...Nd5 against FM Wagner is featured in a couple of theory books (it ended in a draw). I did not play something extravagant, just followed a sound analysis by GM Petursson.
In the above variation, 7...Nd5 just drops a pawn for nothing. Do not mix apples with oranges.
i know, thats what i said, dzindzi's analysis are for a different variation! my post was addressed to omertatao because he said: "I don't believe you and neither does GM Dzindzi and Rybka (running on 16 cores), if I'm not mistaken there's a very playable line after e5."
:)