Against d4 e3 f4 formation ?

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AgraelK

My friend usually plays like this 1.d4 2.e3 3.f4 regardless of black's moves. My general answer to 1.d4 is Nf6, so can you suggest a set-up against this pawn formation ? I am a KID player myself, and I like attacking opponent's king, but I also have a taste for lock positions and slow play.

Thanks in advance.

TheGreatOogieBoogie

Okay, the last thing you want is to create a symmetrical position.  Try for a KID setup where the d6 pawn supports an eventual ...e5 thrust.  You'll need excellent timing however since the e5 would be challenging the f4 and d4 simultaneously and if you're premature you'll get burned or if you're too late then white may consolidate. 

 

I recall a Botvinnik game where he played with such a structure as black and sacrificed his rook for the darksquared bishop given its offensive potential.  You want to exchange off that bishop (since the position is usually closed with that setup a bishop can do more than a rook who bites granite) since it can slip through his own pawn chain.  Preferably you'd want to exchange bishop for bishop unless the center is fluid, in which case a knight for bishop may be good as the center could open.  

The annotations are old and was a training exercise so beware of that:



 

TheGreatOogieBoogie

Here is a Euwe game even more relevant to your question, even complete with the ...e5! strike mentioned above.  Not how he prepares it with ...Nc6 (...Nbd7 is usually better to leave the c-pawn free to move) and leaves white full of holes:



 

 

 And one by Akopian:





MervynS

Read this thread, there are a few ideas mentioned:
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/how-to-defend-against-the-stonewall-attack

Here is also an interesting move order too,

1. d4d52. e3Nf63. Bd3Qd74. Nd2Qg45. f3Qh5

It's from this thread, just skip the back-and-forth arguments: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/stonewall-opening

I_Am_Second
AgraelK wrote:

My friend usually plays like this 1.d4 2.e3 3.f4 regardless of black's moves. My general answer to 1.d4 is Nf6, so can you suggest a set-up against this pawn formation ? I am a KID player myself, and I like attacking opponent's king, but I also have a taste for lock positions and slow play.

Thanks in advance.


As in life, you have choices:

1. You can do the same thing, and lock up the center, and play on the wings

2. You can keep the center fluid, and counter attack in the center.

A lot will depend on what youre looking for, and what the position holds.  If you want a slow strategic game, lock up the center.  If youre looking for more "action" counter in the center.

AgraelK

Thanks, you all are very helpful, esp. Boogie. So there are many ways to counter the stonewall attack but from what I can see, the KID setup with e5 is the best with dynamic play, or go d5 e6 Ne8 and f5 to lock the game.

@Boogie : about the Akopian game, why did you say after Nf3 black must earn e5 ? Can he not play Nc6 or Nd7 then e5 like normal ?

I_Am_Second
AgraelK wrote:

Thanks, you all are very helpful, esp. Boogie. So there are many ways to counter the stonewall attack but from what I can see, the KID setup with e5 is the best with dynamic play, or go d5 e6 Ne8 and f5 to lock the game.

@Boogie : about the Akopian game, why did you say after Nf3 black must earn e5 ? Can he not play Nc6 or Nd7 then e5 like normal ?


4.Nf3 adds another piece guarding the e5 square, making it harder for black to open the game with ...e5. 

KoherC

It seems like there is a wide space for interpretation of the rules.   One that I am wrestling with is when to resign versus let time play out.  I think there should be more points awarded for a checkmate than for a win on time.  It's very difficult to checkmate a player in blitz or bullet) even if you're clearly ahead.  I am practicing how to checkmate faster.  Still I think people should listen to the little voice in their head when interpreting the rules.  By the way, I have an engine which I use for practice ONLY.  You can tell by my weird game development. :>/

I_Am_Second
KoherC wrote:

It seems like there is a wide space for interpretation of the rules.   One that I am wrestling with is when to resign versus let time play out.  I think there should be more points awarded for a checkmate than for a win on time.  It's very difficult to checkmate a player in blitz or bullet) even if you're clearly ahead.  I am practicing how to checkmate faster.  Still I think people should listen to the little voice in their head when interpreting the rules.  By the way, I have an engine which I use for practice ONLY.  You can tell by my weird game development. :>/


A win is a win, whether by time or resignation.  If youre having trouble mating in time pressure, a really good exercise is to set up a board, and clock.  Give yourself a certain amount of time youre comfortable with, and practice mating with different pieces against a friend or engine.  Slowly as you get faster, give yourself less time. 

KoherC

Very good advice.  Thanks, I'll do that.

WanderingPuppet

playing ...c5, ...d5... Nc6, pressurize d4 or play on the loosened light squares (like e4 and f5) with horseys is a plan.  as a KID player sometimes it's preferable to change the pawn structure too.

another plan is to clamp on e4 with pieces, fianchetto both bishops and play ...b6 and ...c5 and even ...e6 sometimes, and look for opportunities to break in the center.  hedgehog style.

TheGreatOogieBoogie
AgraelK wrote:

Thanks, you all are very helpful, esp. Boogie. So there are many ways to counter the stonewall attack but from what I can see, the KID setup with e5 is the best with dynamic play, or go d5 e6 Ne8 and f5 to lock the game.

@Boogie : about the Akopian game, why did you say after Nf3 black must earn e5 ? Can he not play Nc6 or Nd7 then e5 like normal ?

He opted for a different strategy in that game but from that particular position white can make it difficult with Nf3 and an ...e5 break isn't always a good idea.  Worth preparing for but like Nimzowitsch said about a French defense strategy the weakened d4 pawn is well held by white so attack other weaknesses the return to the other weaknesses in an endgame, same principle applies here.

  Akopian opted for ...c5 pressuring the d5 pawn which is thematic to many 1.d4 openings. Akopian then exploited a tactical chance and wound up with a passed pawn and darksquared bishop with a lightsquared pawn skeleton against a knight.  It is still one viable way of dealing with the f4+d4 setup.