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< Age 10, Defense Against e4: e5, Scandi, or French?

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Harsh1739

kindaspongey wrote:

"... [Fundamental Chess Openings by GM Paul van der Sterren] is not particularly suited for players who are just starting out. I would imagine players rated at least 1400-1500 would get the most benefit from this volume. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2009) https://web.archive.org/web/20140626173432/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen128.pdf

Here is a sample:

http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/FCO_Fundamental_Chess_Openings.pdf

For details on lots of openings, Seirawan's Winning Chess Openings is probably a lot more readable.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627132508/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen173.pdf

Other possibilities:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708093123/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review756.pdf

One might also consider:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627031504/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen76.pdf

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2010/1/30/a-brief-review-of-carsten-hansens-back-to-basics-openings.html

Totally agree. 1000 rated players may not be able to gain much from the book on their own. But the kids have a coach rated around 1500 who can help them to understand the concepts. So I guess it may help.

Harsh1739

kindaspongey wrote:

"... [Fundamental Chess Openings by GM Paul van der Sterren] is not particularly suited for players who are just starting out. I would imagine players rated at least 1400-1500 would get the most benefit from this volume. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2009) https://web.archive.org/web/20140626173432/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen128.pdf

Here is a sample:

http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/FCO_Fundamental_Chess_Openings.pdf

For details on lots of openings, Seirawan's Winning Chess Openings is probably a lot more readable.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627132508/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen173.pdf

Other possibilities:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708093123/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review756.pdf

One might also consider:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627031504/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen76.pdf

http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2010/1/30/a-brief-review-of-carsten-hansens-back-to-basics-openings.html

Totally agree. 1000 rated players may not be able to gain much from the book on their own. But the kids have a coach rated around 1500 who can help them to understand the concepts. So I guess it may help.

Thevikasinator

I would recommend the caro kann. Although, it seems weird at first, it easy to learn. Exchange variation is playable, and advanced is easy to counter. In classical, instead of theory, I recommend an early kingside castle and achieve c5(you already have your dark squared bishop on e7 or d6 supporting it and your knight on d7(not the one on f6)). If white starts a kingside attack, just castle queenside and aim for e5(breaking the center). Once your students reach 1500 USCF and they play solid, teach them Sicilian. I currently teach my students that are about 800 USCF e5 but they always have caro kann in their repertoire just in case. 

SmyslovFan
MetalRatel wrote:

I would recommend learning the open games with 1.e4 e5. The Scandinavian is not the best opening for teaching classical opening principles. "Safe and easy" without a principled approach to the opening becomes a crutch in the long term. I have worked with younger students where we had to work through bad habits that developed from "easy" systems recommended by another coach. Maybe the Scandinavian could be useful to teach as a surprise weapon for stronger students who have a good foundation in opening principles, but I don't care much for it as a main defense for a beginning player. 

The lessons from the open games will be valuable for learning other openings in the future. It is so important to have a sense for the initiative in these openings and this experience will serve a player well in the long run. I am a little uneasy about a student starting with the French, since this often leads to closed positions where inexperienced younger players can tend to play too passively with a space disadvantage. For an inexperienced player, the illusion of safety in closed positions can lead to some bad habits if there is not a proper foundation. The French is a counterattacking opening and it takes significant skill to play it properly.

Well said. 

As an aside, I've seen coaches recommend all sorts of "safe" openings to protect their students from aggressive play. Even when it works in the short run, such an approach teaches that chess is something to be feared, not enjoyed. Most students who learn such "safe" lines end up dropping out of chess at a young age. It just isn't fun!

Schachgrenze

I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe someone mentioned it, but I think the Fianchetto is a pattern that the kids like much (my son loves it) so I would suggest the Modern Defense Standard Line with 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3

If I would try to teach the French, I think I would try to teach transposing to the Pirc Small Center Defense with 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d6.

But as I said I would prefer the Modern... Cheers!

 

Schachgrenze

Ok thanks BobbyTalparov, I understand that - my experience is, at much lower level than 1000 I guess, they like obvious patterns to play: first with pawnchains (zigzag) then with double fianchettos (Hippo) a.s.o. - so this was my association I had.. But your right the KID can become very difficult of course! of course it depends on the player you're facing too.

kindaspongey
SeniorPatzer wrote: "Teaching little kids, but mostly my son, which beginning opening repertoire for the 1000 rated player? ..."
BobbyTalparov wrote:

... The main issue with the Pirc, Modern, KID, and Grunfeld is that they rely heavily on well-timed pawn breaks.  If you mistime the pawn break (or never make it), you either get blown off the board or suffocated.  Someone new to the game is not going to have enough understanding to know when to time those pawn breaks, so they will suffer many (many) crushing defeats and not understand where they went wrong. ...

Without meaning to explicitly disagree, I think it is reasonable to wonder whether or not that is an appropriate description of what is likely to happen at the level of the players who are involved.

SeniorPatzer
DeirdreSkye wrote:

For a kid , the most important is to learn to rely on his thinking and not on some pre determined moves. Once his understanding increase there will be plenty of time for opening theory.

    For now teach him things like the battle for the centre and piece development and cooperation. Help him to understand why the knight must be deployed on c3 and at the same time why it must not. Help him understand why moves like h3 must be played and at the same time why they must not. These things are far more important than any opening repertoire. After all improvement in chess comes with thinking. It's better to let him lose and then urge him to find the reasons than trying to protect him. If you try to protect him from defeats he will learn to rely on some ready made moves and that's the worst that can happen to a kid.

 

Your whole comment is terrific.  Thank you.

Paul1e4
catdogorb wrote:

I was unprepared to face the Portuguese against an 1800 guy OTB.

I won pretty easily. The game began:

 

What about 4. Be2?

RussBell

Food for thought, from one patzer to another.....

http://grandpatzerchess.blogspot.com/2007/03/openings-for-improving-players-part-1.html
http://grandpatzerchess.blogspot.com/2007/03/openings-for-improving-players-part-2.html

Part 3 - presents the final recommendations....
http://grandpatzerchess.blogspot.com/2007/03/openings-for-improving-players-part-3.html

 

hunting2008

Just e5. Learn more is always better & they have to learn how to defense against e5. Scd is simply but can lose very well.

hunting2008

Please avoid kids to play Scl! They'll lost in danger position.

UAArtur

Read this https://www.chess.com/blog/UAArtur/ssscandinavian

If you like - play this def!

shadowpeashooter7
e4 g6 is fine
shadowpeashooter7
Just let them know the basic principles and they will know how to play the opening pretty well, even if they don't know the lines.
kindaspongey

"... Review each of your games, identifying opening (and other) mistakes with the goal of not repeatedly making the same mistake. ... It is especially critical not to continually fall into opening traps – or even lines that result in difficult positions ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2007)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627062646/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman81.pdf

dannyhume
Great thread for age >40 too! I was thinking of ditching 1...e5 against 1.e4 because I really like Neil McDonald and he has two acclaimed books that I know of covering the French. And I was not too impressed with what I began to read in Glenn Flear’s book on Open Games (strings of variations within variations without hardly any words, does not seem like it is for someone “Starting Out”) but I do like Emms’ First Steps book on 1.e4 e5.
Alltheusernamestaken
SeniorPatzer wrote:

Teaching little kids, but mostly my son, which beginning opening repertoire for the 1000 rated player?  I don't want to spend much time on opening lines, but they already know the principles of development, center control, king safety, and want to get a little deeper.

 

Kids like playing 1.e4.  So that's good.  Open, attacking, tactical chess.  Will probably create another post about whether kids should learn Open Sicilian or Anti-Sicilian, but that's not really the subject of this post.

 

But what's the easiest, yet obtain sound, playable middlegames for these youngsters that will serve them well their entire lives for a defense against 1. e4?   

 

A.)  e5 seems logical.  That's how chess theory history and development started.  But they have to learn KG, Scotch, Giuco Piano, Ruy Lopez.

 

B.)  Scandinavian.  1. ... d5.  Much less theory, and obtain playable middlegames.  Just doesn't follow the traditional track of chess pedagogy.

 

C.)  French.  Fairly straightforward ideas.  But cramped, maneuvering chess.  Seems anti-thetical to a White repertoire of 1. e4.  But maybe less theory to learn than all the possibilities of  1. e5?

 

Note:  I see plenty kids playing the Sicilian.  Not crazy about novices getting into the Sicilian because I'd much rather have them spend time on tactics and endgames than learning openings.  So I'm not putting the Sicilian on the short list unless someone can present solid arguments otherwise.

 

So what do you folks recommend for the young scholastics?

If he wants to play e5, teach him the 2 knight defense as it's useful against almost anything.

If not you can always teach him a System like the KID as it's also very polivalent.

Maybe the caro-kann is a good idea too.

Alltheusernamestaken
SmithyQ wrote:

The problem with anything that isn't 1...e5 is that you almost certainly violate at least one general opening principle.  With the Qxd5 Scandinavian, you are moving your Queen early; with the Nxd5 variation, you are moving pieces twice in the opening.  Granted, neither is losing or anything, but if your goal is to instill all the basic principles of chess, you don't want to play exceptions on move 2.

@MetalRatel shows a good system, where you follow the same general set-up as Black and get similar play.  The one think I'll add, though, is Classical Italian with c3 and d4 from White can be very tricky.  In the mainline, if Black doesn't find ...d5 (and if you've never seen it before, why would you consider this at 1000 level?), he gets a worse game.  Also, the Moller and similar gambits are apparently nothing at master level, but I can see it absolutely wrecking beginner competition.

We don't want people to memorize theory at beginner level, but they need to know how to play these types of positions.  This is the main challenge of learning 1...e5 imo.

 

You haven't played the best moves, in fact this variation (Greco gambit, traditional variation) loses a pawn for white... I have a thread about the center attack of the giuoco piano if you wanna watch it tongue.png