Alternative to the Ruy

@keighley

13 Bd5 Na5 14 Bxb7 Nxb7 15 Nxe5 Re8 16 Nf3 +-

The Ponziani is pretty much busted by the Fraser Defense (and I don't mean busted as in "barely equal or slightly worse", but busted as in "worse and possibly losing entirely"), but OTB in the sub-master sections, nobody is going to know how to play the Fraser Defense perfectly, so...

Yes now I see it

You played Bd2 INSTEAD of the Bb2

Well my line is a response to your line but with Bb2(superior) instead of Bd2

what

If you're okay with equality than you shouldn't be playing 1.e4.  

I still don't really understand why the Ruy is supposed to give more chances for an edge than the Scotch...if White's looking for a theoretical edge, 1 d4 is probably his best chance..

On move 3? Yeah! 

The path to equality is just easier against other options, ask the superGM's...there is a reason 19 outta 20 open games end up in the Ruy with the oddball Scotch every once in a while.  

Right but below Super GM level the path to equality is often more difficult in the Scotch, because Black is faced with rather irregular positins which he is less familiar with than White.

But if you're going to factor in practical matters such as your opponents familiarity with a line or position, than this is another reason not to play 1.e4.  e4 is played the most and has a more forcing nature, so opponents are always more prepared for 1.e4, more comfortable against 1.e4, and can also computer prep against you, even in sub-NM levels.  

Yeah I talk to them regularly, they contact for me for theoretical advice .  Nah but seriously, why would you play the Ruy Lopez at that level if you didn't believe it to be best?  They all know the theory is mammoth, everyone is constantly improving on each other's games, if anything I would be very hesitant to play into such waters unless I was 100% confident it was giving me the best positions.  Fashion is one thing, but its not just superficial...their meal ticket is driven by rating points.  They all have reached largely the same conclusion...

the most likely fact is that basically any main opening and likely most others are draws.

That does not mean that the ruy is objectively the same as 1 e4 e5 2 d3

The ruy obviously is better at creating a complex position where a human player as black is likely to go wrong. The problem is one I have already stated. The ruy has been studied intensively by every good chessplayer for over 100 years, so yeah at this point you may as well play 2 d3 or the vienna because you might be more likely to catch someone in a place they trip up.

You may even be a good player and think that these openings are just as good because of personal experience or what number your computer tells you.

Before everything was played out players like capablanca, tal, and fischer knew what their best try to create complications that the person on the other side of the chess board would find difficult.

I agree, you are talking about people who play for money. You think these people haven't thought about what early options give white the best try to win.

If you want to argue semantics about it being objectively equal then you can win that arguement, Yes everyone gets that chess is a draw.

It is still the best try to win.

Fair enough. I understand what your point is and it is good for non masters to look at openings in this way.

To me it is easy to see why someone like caruana or carlsen uses the ruy more often then something like the vienna even though they are certainly both draws and thus equal.

Its like saying tic tac toe is a cats game so there is no point to put the first mark in the center.

Yeah it is a cats game no matter what but that doesnt mean that putting the mark in the center is not the best way to try for the win. You could of course pretend that it is equal to start in a corner and on one level of thinking you would be correct.

Actually, for those that "know" how to draw Tic-Tac-Toe, playing the corner first is the best way to sometimes trip those people up.  Play one corner, they will of course play the center...then play the diagonally opposite corner; if they are on autopilot they will choose a corner, because everyone knows that choosing a middle side square is bad ;).  

If they then choose a corner square, you win...

I don't really agree that the Scotch is the only serious alternative to the Ruy, what about the Scotch endgame? Is there anyway White can avoid it? I think the endgame is just equal.

What about the vienna lines with Bc4 or g3 instead of the immediate f4, pfren?

@ Pfren

Evans Gambit seems fairly decent.. 

General consesus should be that Scotch is easy to equalize with if black knows his lines.

Anyhow what do you think of Bb2 as I suggested and evaluated as better for white instead of Bd2 in the previously dicussed position? How would you think both sides to proceed with best play?

That is a good point. I do see that in every line you can say black will equalize if he knows his stuff. I guess pretty soon people will decide that h3 is the best try for advantage because it gets black out of his prepared lines and avoids the marshall attack