anyone know a tactical and attacking opening against the english

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is your claim the KID shouldn't be played against the English, and whether the players post contained useful information for answering your question / addressing your point. And furthermore... the botvinik is not even that good objectively, it's just a positional game, it's actually alot less challenging than the KID... you would not avoid playing the KID vs the English due to the botvinik setup, that'd be ridiculous.

Also, i was talking about you. You said, “It’s obvious you don’t know about theory”. Your proof: trust me bro

My point is, he was trying to help you, and if YOU know ANYTHING about theory, you would know that the botvinnick is NOT A REFUTATION.

I assume you have no response to my points that you have been so desperately trying to disprove, and utterly failed to.

A player with 2200 elo gave you advice and you ignored it, and the low elo player is telling you the Botvinik is not a critical line in the English and he's correct, so.... elo actually has nothing to do with it and you really have no point here.

I don’t know every single thing about theory, like what you assume, but I know some theory. Please, stop putting words in my mouth

I love how you say, “You’re wrong”, but don’t give evidence.

Lol, when I plug the Botvinik into leela the position is literally equal... the position is closed and it's just going to result in a long positional and equal game, how would this be any reason to avoid the KID against the english...?

Once you play d3 and you're no longer transposing to a KID, you're just playing a botvinik - it is immediately an equal game by the engine, the position is closed, and it's just going to be a long term positional game where probably slight inaccuracies result in one side or another winning. If white has an edge here it's in his greater experience with the line, not something objective about the line.

I could play you in the Botivinik and beat you, or who knows I could lose the game - this would do absolutely nothing to prove or disprove your point... your point is nonsense by all objective criteria.

Your point is alot like saying... that we should avoid d4 because we dont want to face the Jobava. The jobava is a tough line for practical reasons sure, but if black knows what he's doing he can handle it and he has an equal game. You wouldn't avoid the KID against the English due to the Botvinik.

You winning will have no bearing on this. If it is a refutation, why do titled players play the KID against the botvinnick? Because it isn’t.

Sorry guys i was cooking dinner

1) in master level games 90% of the c4/e4/Nc3 "botvinik setup" games are transposed into KIDs after 4. d4, and those are the games driving the winrate you're referring to. Yes, you heard that correctly: 90% of master players do not even play a botvinik after the botvinik setup. That's because they know the position is dead equal. You have analyzed the stats incorrectly, and you fail to understand the most basic theory of the opening you're harping on about - literally the 4th move of the opening here. To reach an actual botvinik - a position which does not transpose into a KID - you must play d3. Once white plays d3 the winrates are I would say not really that great. Why is there this anomaly with the KID performing worse when reached from an english setup? It could be a transpositional problem for Grunfeld players, could be something to do with the skill and familiarity of white in these positions, but there's no telling really... what this should show you is stats can't always be taken at face value. The stats you're looking at are for the KID, not the botvinik.
Now that your point has been completely shredded will you stop arguing? Or will you thank any of us for explaining this to you and correcting your bad ideas, making you a better chess player? I doubt it.

2) once again, you're on a public forum so whether you wanted him to respond or not is irrelevant, we have pointed this out multiple times. I don't know why you're repeating yourself, you're just stating information that is already widely understood. Apparently your idea of explaining something to "knotheads" is just repeating known and acknowledged information

3) for a prospective KID player an opponents line being uncommon - i.e. I don't face the english much - is not a reason to avoid playing the line, it's a reason to learn the line. You know, like study the line the way people study any opening. When you say an opening is weak you suggest something about its objective value. Objectively the engine scores the botvinik dead equal. There are openings which are difficult to play despite them being dead equal, like the Jobava - but if you study these openings you will find there are lines that work against them. It is not prohibitive to play these openings. And I wouldn't even put the Botvinik in the same category as the Jobava, it's just a closed position that's equal, it's not even that complex or challenging.

4) I don't need to play you to prove that your point is nonsense, I can just prove that logically and I already have repeatedly.

Keep trying

GM Marin in his series of books on the english, were mostly uses 1c4 and 2g3, used the Botvinnik against the KID both for when black went d6 and e5 which previous Authors thought was reasonable, and also against d6, c5 which most others thought was less so. He stated that the g3 KingsIndian was a good choice it happy to play d4.

I don't think any titled believes the Botvinnik is a particular reason for black to give up on the KID moves, and most think transposing to a main line KID more dangerous.

We have currently refuted all your claims. Your points are all incorrect, as usual.

This kid is not even following the conversation on the most basic level.

"I haver never suggested that anyone give up on the KID against the Botvinnick."

You have repeatedly actually. That was what your original claim implied, and it's the entire reason you're still arguing the botvinnick is a difficult line to face, but it isn't.

Dude, the line literally transposes into the KID on move 4 90% of the time the moment white plays 4. d4, and that's where the winrates you're referring to come from. It is a mainline KID at that point, NOT A BONVINNICK. Incase you are unfamiliar this is known as a transposition. Are you confused by this???

It is hilarious that you would even dare to call this point stupid when it is just basic logic which you cannot even follow. You are a perfect real life example of Dunning-Krugers.

No, you are not interpreting me correctly. I am telling you that leela scores the Botvinnick lines which do not transpose with the KID about +0.00. Dead even for both sides. Not on par with the KID. Furthermore, I'm telling you that the Botvinnick positions which do not tranpose into the KID have winrates that are significantly worse for white than the mainline KID positions, AND that the Botvinnick setup is just a simple closed positional game where any tempo advantage white has will become completely irrelevant as the game proceeds, a widely understood trait of closed positions.

You're right, I spelled the name Botvinnick wrong - that is the most valid and thoughtful point you have made in this entire thread so far, congratulations.

What do I have to gain from playing you when I'm just correct? There is nothing to settle here, you have no basis for disagreement, you are wrong / very confused, you do not even appear to understand what the Bottvinick is and how it differs from the KID transpositions, and us playing a game will not change that.

If you knew it well you would not have told us earlier that on move 3 the Bottvinick has a prohibitively high winrate, while overlooking that on move 4 it transposes into the KID 90% of the time and this accounts for the entirety of that high winrate. You would have understood that if you had even the most basic grasp of the theory here. So no, you don't know it well - I still suspect you think the KID is the Bottvinick here.

Post a position of a Bottvinick like 10 moves deep and prove to us you know what the position is.

I can do even better than that, I can tell you the actual masters winrate of that setup, the one you claimed earlier was prohibitively bad for black. Let's see...

30% vs. 28% winrate for the main line at master level - oh nooo so scary!

KID transposition from the english - the position you actually mentioned earlier - 46% vs. 19%.

There you go, you failed again

If you had two people in a room, you knew one of them was dropped on their head when they were younger... and you knew one of them couldn't read or form a coherent point, but the other could... hmmm which would you guess was dropped on the head. Hmm....