Baltic Defense.

As I mentioned in the thread about the Albin CounterGambit, I was looking for something new to play against 1. d4, so I bought the book "Unusual Queen's Gambit Declined" by Chris Ward for info on the Albin. But besides the Albin, that book also covers the Baltic and Chigorin, and in looking through it, I've decided that the Baltic (1. d4 d5 2. c4 Bf5) appeals to me the most of the three. I'm not really sure why - just a gut instinct.

The fact that 2. ... Bf5 messes up Colle players as well as working against the QGD is a plus. And people who delay c4 by playing 2. Nf3 first don't avoid it. Actually, the only way I can think of for white to really avoid it after 1. d4 d5 is if they go the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit route and play 2. e4. I've played the BDG enough as white to know how to deal with it, so that doesn't really worry me. Or I could always go with 2. ... e6 in that scenario and get the French, which is my usual response to 1. e4.

I've been mostly focused on endgame study lately, so I haven't had time to read the whole three chapters in the book on this opening, but I have skimmed them a bit and played over some of the games. I've also tried the opening twice myself so far in online games and enjoyed playing it, even though I didn't play it perfectly. At least I got interesting games.

Does anyone here play the Baltic? Anyone have any recommendations or warnings for traps or lines I should know? Anyone know of any interesting games to look at in this opening? Any variations that white can use to avoid it besides 2. e4?

Besides that, is this opening considered sound? I know it's named after Keres, but I was wondering if any grandmasters play it today. Not that I would refuse to play an opening if it's unsound (I do play the Englund Gambit and Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, after all), but I'm just curious.

--Fromper

No grandmasters, and very few IMs play the Baltic these days. The refutation line is given in many popular books, including Modern Chess Openings, Nunn's Chess Openings, and Informator. Some of them call the opening the QG Refused. I haven't seen the book you are referring to, but I would be surprised if it has changed the evaluation of the opening.

It could have surprise value, but if your opponent knows the theory you are in for a very inferior position.

On the other hand, Morozevich has shown the Chigorin to be a playable modern opening. 

The book gives some lines that are difficult to play, but nothing that seems to be an outright refutation. Apparently, Shirov has played the Baltic on occasion, and my book that covers it gives several games by GM Rausis, who seems to play it quite a bit.

You mentioned that MCO has the "refutation". Can you tell me where? I actually looked through my copy of MCO-14 to see what it had to say about the Baltic, but I couldn't find this opening mentioned anywhere. I tried the section on the QGD and misc double queen's pawn openings, as well of the index of openings by name. I haven't taken the time to search the Slav section yet, but I was thinking it might be hidden in a footnote as a sideline in there somewhere, since it can transpose to a Slav in some lines.

--Fromper 

Reb, thanks for the comment on the specific move that white does best with.

After 3. cxd5, the usual move by black is 3. ... Bxb1. If white recaptures immediately with 4. Rxb1, black gets a decent position. Looking through the games in my book, that's actually the line I hope my opponents will play. After 4. ... Qxd5, black aims to play Nc6, 0-0-0, and e5 on the next few moves to try attacking up the d file. The strategy in that line is straightforward, but the tactics can get wild enough to be fun. That's why I want to play this opening.

4. Qa4+, delaying the recapture on b1, is the line that probably causes black the most problems. I'll have to look through the book more and play some more games to learn how to deal with that and other possible white moves.

--Fromper 

I don't really care if an opening is objectively any good. I'm rated 1363 USCF, and most of my tournament opponents are in the 1300-1700 range. My opponents aren't going to clobber me just because I play an opening that seems reasonable, but isn't quite good enough to be popular among grandmasters. Once I get better, gain a few hundred rating points, and start trying to routinely defeat players above 1800, I'll worry about whether my opening choices are sound enough for opponents who are better at playing against them. But by then, if I'm still playing this opening, I'm likely to be bored with playing the same opening all the time and be ready for something new, anyway.

I just think the positions that come from this opening look interesting. It's a way to get an open, attacking game against Queen's Gambit players, without playing an extremely risky gambit. I might look at the Albin too, since I have the book that covers it. It's always good to have several openings to choose from, especially since the main club I play at is pretty small, so I face the same opponents over and over.

--Fromper 

hi there,

     thanks fromper for the advice as white in this opening. i have an internet game right now in it but i haven't seen it enough to know the best lines. that's funny that you like to mess with the Colle players- i used to play it a bit. but what really burns me up is when i try to play an Alekhine's Defense as black and end up in a  Vienna Game, ugh!

I have a 2300 elo friend who has played this opening a lot in blitz games and even occasionally in real games against strong opponents - IM's and GMs. He plays the opening because he likes the crazy positions that often arise if white doesn't know what he is doing. And many white players have no clue what to play.

But...

We have analyzed the opening quite extensively, and I have to agree with carealestate. If white plays the critical line, black is close to lost right out of the opening. But white needs to KNOW the critical line. There is no way he will find it himself.

Even against the critical line my friend has some tricks prepared, but they are just that - tricks.

What is the critical line, you ask?

According to most opening manuals it is 1.d4,d5 2.c4,Bf5 3.cxd5!,Bxb1 (forced) 4.Qa4+!,c6 5.Rxb1.

Our analysis have confirmed this. In our opinion black, in this position, has to play 5...Nf6, gambitíng the c6 pawn. 5...Qxd5 is just bad after 6.f3!,Nf6 6.e4!,Nxe4 (otherwise white has an overwhelming positional advantage) 7.Bc4,Qf5 8.fxe4,Qxe4 9.Ne2,Qxb1 10.Qb3 and black is completely busted. White has three very serious threats: Qxb7,Bxf7, and Bd3 followed by 0-0 winning the queen.

After 5...Nf6, however, white can simply take the pawn, eg. 6.dxc6,Nxc6 7.e3,e5 8.Bb5!,Qd5 9.Nf3 with a horrible position for black.

In other words:

2...Bf5 is close to completely refuted, and if you suspect that your opponent might know the refutation, play something else.

As someone mentioned - why not play Chigorin's defence, 2...Nc6, in stead? It has very much the same point and is clearly more correct - albeit probably not strictly correct either. But at least it is considerably more complicated to get an advantage against the Chigorin. Unlike the Baltic, there is no clear-cut refutation.

Good luck! :)

By the way...

You write that 2...Bf5 messes up Colle players. That will be after 1.d4,d5 2.Nf3 as Colle players don't play 2.c4.

What about playing the Baltic after 1.d4,d5 2.Nf3, you ask?

After the somewhat timid 2.Nf3 black has more options, and 2.Bf5 is one of them, as white, in this case, cannot play the best line (2.c4xd5!). White should never the less reply 3.c4, transposing into a less critical line of the Baltic. After 3...e6 4.Qb3 white gets good play (if he knows how!), but black gets a playable position - albeit somewhat worse than what he gets in the main lines of the queens gambit.

In short: After 2.Nf3 the Baltic is playable, but still slightly dubious.

But the Baltic proper, 1.d4,d5 2.c4!,Bf5?! is definitely dubious - in fact almost unplayable for black - as he will have to accept a very bad position if white knows just one relatively simple line.

It may not be completely lost, especially if black, like my friend, has analyzed the position thoroughly and knows how to give white the hardest problems to solve.

But why insist on suffering in this line when we can just play something else in move 2?

Hi Fromper :) I used to have that book! I should still have it, but I appear to have lost it. I also played the Baltic for quite a while against 1.d4.

I think you're totally right that around your level (and considerably higher also) such "refutations" shouldn't concern you too much as that level of player is unlikely to know them.

What I think you should bear in mind, though, is that more often you'll probably find white playing Nc3 and Nf3 staying in tranquil waters and not going for any of the more fun continuations that the Baltic has to offer. If you want to play the Baltic, you should be prepared for this 'normal' type of Queen's gambit line.

Instead, I'd suggest you try the Chigorin - it's also offbeat, but is sounder than the Baltic and White has fewer opportunities to make into a 'normal' QG game - e.g. after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6, 3.Nf3 looks like a reasonable attempt at being quiet but then 3...Bg4 and you're starting to make things interesting already.

What's with all the thread necromancy here today? This is the second thread I started more than a year and a half ago about openings I no longer play that has suddenly gotten a new response.

I didn't even play the Baltic for very long. I kept running into people who played 1. c4, so I decided to switch to a more generic response that works against both c4 and d4. For about a year, that was the Tarrasch Defense, but now I mostly play the Dutch as my main weapon against anything but 1. e4 as black.

--Fromper

I don't know about the Baltic defense but for the improving player I would say the Chigorin defense is a good choice, because the type of positions you get will vary alot, so you'll gain lots of experience and it'll improve your technique.

 I am very sorry to pose a patzer question, but in your refutation of 5...Qxd5, is there not a chance for the more energetic 6. f3 e5!?  Obviously, 7. e4 Qxd4. Maybe 7. dxe5 Qxe5 8. Bf4?! Qc5.  I'm just starting to look into this opening and would very much appreciate the help!

Most people talk about 3. cxd, but when i play the baltic, 3. qb3 is the one move that will make blacks position into a no hope/no fun...

It's funny that this is a thread started in 2007 where Fromper was already wondering about necromancy back in 2009 :-)

queen's gampit accepted trap

white wins a knight by throwing a pawn

what does QGA got to do with anything? :P

Conzipe, your probably right, but my point is that most theory that i have seen, is about cxd, not qb3.

white can control the centre by moving black's pawn to the left

white will win the match