Best Answer To Reti Opening

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Avatar of binblaster
sisu wrote:
NatashaBeast wrote:

2.Nf6

How do you get away with that provocative picture?

+1

Avatar of pt22064
ItsEoin wrote:

How about responding to 1. Nf3 with Nc6, then, so that you've got e5 ready if c4 comes next. Nc6 is perfectly good, too, and you can play a Chigorin defense if White decides to go for a QG.

In my view, Nc6 is weak reply to Nf3 (Zuckertort, not yet Reti) because it gives White the choice of playing a king pawn or queen pawn opening (or even sticking with more of a Reti structure by delaying advance of both the d and e pawns).  Also by blocking his c pawn, Black limits his options -- often to weaker openings for black.  For example, if White plays e4 in response to Nc6, Black can no longer play Sicilian, and White can play into Ruy Lopez, which is quite strong for White.  If White chooses to play d4, Black is similarly hampered by the knight blocking his c pawn, completely eliminating Slav, Semi-Slav and many other QGD black defenses.  Indeed, White can force Black into the Chigorin, which is hardly Black's best response to a queen's gambit type opening.

Notably, Nc6 is rarely played at the GM level (certainly not in serious matches).  I have seen it frequently played at lower levels (below 1000 or below 1200).  I often play Nf3 in tournaments, and typically win against a Nc6 response (unless i make a terrible blunder like dropping a piece unnecessarily).  Usually, the players who choose to play Nc6 against Nf3 admit to me afterwards that they have never actually played against a Nf3 opening previously and just made a guess as to what a good response would be.

Avatar of HelperoftheHopeless
pt22064 wrote:

In my view, Nc6 is weak reply to Nf3 (Zuckertort, not yet Reti) because it gives White the choice of playing a king pawn or queen pawn opening (or even sticking with more of a Reti structure by delaying advance of both the d and e pawns).  Also by blocking his c pawn, Black limits his options -- often to weaker openings for black.  For example, if White plays e4 in response to Nc6, Black can no longer play Sicilian, and White can play into Ruy Lopez, which is quite strong for White.  If White chooses to play d4, Black is similarly hampered by the knight blocking his c pawn, completely eliminating Slav, Semi-Slav and many other QGD black defenses.  Indeed, White can force Black into the Chigorin, which is hardly Black's best response to a queen's gambit type opening.

Notably, Nc6 is rarely played at the GM level (certainly not in serious matches).  I have seen it frequently played at lower levels (below 1000 or below 1200).  I often play Nf3 in tournaments, and typically win against a Nc6 response (unless i make a terrible blunder like dropping a piece unnecessarily).  Usually, the players who choose to play Nc6 against Nf3 admit to me afterwards that they have never actually played against a Nf3 opening previously and just made a guess as to what a good response would be.

The response 1. ... Nc6 to 1. Nf3 is my personal favorite, and the reasons given for it being inferior to other moves are flawed.  First, if White chooses to play 2. e4, after 2. ... e5, we have transposed to the respectable classical double king pawn opening, not necessarily better or worse than the Sicilian, in fact very often played by Grandmasters at the highest level, the Ruy Lopez is nothing to be feared as Black. Blocking the c-pawn in the case of  White playing 2. e4 is not a problem.

In the case of 2. d4, after 2. ... d5 we have the unusual Chigorin System, but with an advantage; White has already committed his Knight to f3. Why is this good? Because in standard move order (1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6) White can choose to play 3. Nc3, which avoids the Bg4 lines by Black and is therefore a less favorable position to play from the Black side (in my opinion). So, with White already committing his Knight to f3, Black has the better variation, a typical play on move order. If one is questioning the legitimacy of the Chigorin System, I can assure that the opening is definitely quite playable, though unusual, and has had some strong grandmaster exponents.

Playing Nc6 can be very frustrating to the 1. Nf3 player as well, in the case of the White player planning to play 2. b3 without having to worry about e5, well, Nc6 enables e5 and White must be willing to accept that or change strategies. If White tries any hypermodern setup, Black will be able to play 2. ... e5 and already White will be out of his comfort zone.

All in all, I love playing 1. ... Nc6 because of its frustrating effects on hypermodern players, possible transposition to my Black repertoire on 1. e4, and the favorable move order for the Chigorin System against 2. d4.

Avatar of Irontiger
AlxMaster wrote:

In case you haven't noticed, I NEVER ASKED FOR ADVICE.

I asked for a database information.

But then : http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chess+database

Avatar of aggressivesociopath

But it took me under 15 minutes to look up the lines in my last post. Neither my blunt use of the database or an engine at move two tell use much about the position. I would still prefer the database in terms of accuracy and ease of use.

Avatar of Expertise87

Wow, alx doesn't have a brain. Go ahead, see if you can play all of the most theoretical lines in chess by following the most played move by GMs, but that won't help you to play good chess or even good openings because you won't understand anything.

Avatar of Argyrus

Rose...Queen...

Avatar of TitanCG

There are some issues that make the question difficult to answer. First 1.Nf3 is not a Reti or any other opening. It is just a move. Names like Zukertort have been given to it but it is not really an opening. The "orthadox" Reti is 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4. Now you may find the most played move here in your database and get an answer. Whether that move is best is arguable since Black has many ways to equalise. Black's choice is largely a matter of taste. The other issue is move orders. 

1.g3 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 is also a Reti but may transpose to a Catalan or something else. Again the most played response may not be the best one. I would guess that the most played move after 1.Nf3 is either Nf6 or d5. Unfortunately such info is really just trivia since we know that the most played move here is just a matter of taste. Now that you have a database you'll probably get an answer but be sure not to expect the most played move in a position to always be the best one.

Avatar of Oecleus
aggressivesociopath wrote:

But it took me under 15 minutes to look up the lines in my last post. Neither my blunt use of the database or an engine at move two tell use much about the position. I would still prefer the database in terms of accuracy and ease of use.

See my problem with the database is sometimes the most common move isn't the best one. It may be the most common move because it looks good to humans, but infact have a refutation. This is especially true when you are dealing with uncommon openings, or when you go deeper into the line where less games are played.