@rock303, if I'm stupid and you can't read - what does that make you?
The guy clearly said the Moscow is a joke.
Best move order for Classical Sicilian
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Apr 15, 2020
0
#23
Justs99171 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Bohemiansoul99 wrote:
Mortsubite wrote:
Bb5 in both cases? That's what I go for
Sorry, I expressed myself badly, Which do you think is Black's best move order when you take into account white's possible deviation?
It depends on which Anti-Sicilians you'd rather deal with. When I used to play the Sicilian, I played the Taimanov, which also has multiple options on how to arrive there (2...Nc6 or 2...e6). I played 2...e6 to avoid the Rossolimo.
Quite frankly, just about every Anti-Sicilian except the Rossolimo (Yes, including the Moscow) are all a complete joke. The reason I quit playing the Sicilian myself is because of the Open Sicilian (3.d4, White's best move!).
In your case, where your choices are 2...Nc6 vs 2...d6, here's what you must consider:
Rossolimo or Moscow?
Transpose to 2...d5 Alapin or Unique Sideline completely different from the Alapin after 3.c3?
Don't allow 4.Qxd4 or Allow 4.Qxd4
Don't allow the Prins (3.d4, 4.Nxd4, and 5.f3) or allow the Prins.
You can't pick and choose in each list. You must either accept ALL the ones to the LEFT of the "or", or else accept ALL the ones to the RIGHT of the "or". If you want to deal with the ones on the left, play 2...Nc6. If you want to deal with all the ones on the right, play 2...d6.
I have a question for you and sorry if this is off subject, but what variation of the Taimanov were white players playing to cause you so many problems?
I haven't exactly excelled at the black side of this opening, but that is mostly due to my mishandling of the middle game positions; which are not exactly intuitive for me. However, you're most definitely facing a little better competition than me.
In analysis, I don't see where white can cause any problems against the Najdorf or Taimanov ...
The Sveshnikov seems pretty solid, too, but of course black is equalizing - not statistically, but "theoretically" (for whatever that's worth) - in almost every line of the Sicilian or anti-Sicilian; it's just a matter of how deep you get into the lines prior to equalization. With some defenses, black equalizes more quickly, and others require almost 20 moves of memorization.
Absolutely any opening I've analyzed both with an engine and with an opening explorer style statistical database of human vs human games, simultaneously, black is equalizing according to the engine, and white is getting the better of it in human vs human stats.
This is obviously a critical point most amateurs miss while developing an opening repertoire. A human doesn't have the defensive capabilities of an engine. Scientifically, if 95% of white's moves are playable and 95% of black's moves are losing, the engine will call it equal as long as there is that 1 move available that is equal. In human vs human play, white is going to destroy black.
The 2 lines that gave me major issues were the long variation (Be3 and Be2 with 9.Na4 and White getting the Bishop pair) and the recent hype line, 7.Qf3. The English Attack lines were a non issue in my case.
I also played the Najdorf briefly and had enough bad losses with Nd5 by White actually working!
Apr 15, 2020
0
#24
FizzyBand wrote:
Just wondering...What line with black makes you say that the Moscow is a joke? @ThrillerFan
3...Bd7. Do not cause yourself undue problems trying to be cute with 3...Nd7.
When I say a line is a joke for Black, I am saying equality is being handed to you on a silver platter, not that White's lines are refuted.
When a game first starts, I am of the "win with white, draw with black" mentality. Later in the game, if white has made a couple of mistakes and suddenly I feel like I am slightly better, only then am I thinking win with black.
Apr 15, 2020
0
#25
rock303 wrote:
Also @ThrillerFan
I don't think you should be making a claim like that (unless you're like a GM or something). What about the Alapin? Grand Prix Attack? Closed Sicilian? Chekhover? Prins?
Closed - 2...a6, 2...Nc6/3...g6/4...Bg7/5...d6, and 2...e6 lines are all equal (yes, if you are talking a pair of 1600 rated clowns, it does not matter, play 1.h4 h5)
Grand Prix - Depends. With 2.Nc3, 2...a6 and 3...b5 is equal. 2 f4, 2...d5!
Alapin - 2...Nf6 =
Prins - and I say this as one who plays it as White - The early ...Qb6 lines where Qd2 and Kd1 are forced by White and Hedgehog lines are both equal with best play
Apr 15, 2020
0
#26
rock303 wrote:
FizzyBand wrote:
Just wondering...What line with black makes you say that the Moscow is a joke? @ThrillerFan
Dude he never said that the Moscow was a joke
He said any anti-Sicilian except Rossolimo and Moscow is a joke
You can't read!
I said all are a joke except the Rossolimo - Yes, including the Moscow! The Moscow is included in those joke lines!
Apr 15, 2020
0
#27
ThrillerFan wrote:
rock303 wrote:
Also @ThrillerFan
I don't think you should be making a claim like that (unless you're like a GM or something). What about the Alapin? Grand Prix Attack? Closed Sicilian? Chekhover? Prins?
Closed - 2...a6, 2...Nc6/3...g6/4...Bg7/5...d6, and 2...e6 lines are all equal (yes, if you are talking a pair of 1600 rated clowns, it does not matter, play 1.h4 h5)
Grand Prix - Depends. With 2.Nc3, 2...a6 and 3...b5 is equal. 2 f4, 2...d5!
Alapin - 2...Nf6 =
Prins - and I say this as one who plays it as White - The early ...Qb6 lines where Qd2 and Kd1 are forced by White and Hedgehog lines are both equal with best play
What about Chekhover (Qxd4)? Sometimes I play dragon as black, and my opponents play it against me. I actually have no great way to deal with it (though admittedly openings are my weakness)
Apr 15, 2020
0
#28
rock303 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
rock303 wrote:
Also @ThrillerFan
I don't think you should be making a claim like that (unless you're like a GM or something). What about the Alapin? Grand Prix Attack? Closed Sicilian? Chekhover? Prins?
Closed - 2...a6, 2...Nc6/3...g6/4...Bg7/5...d6, and 2...e6 lines are all equal (yes, if you are talking a pair of 1600 rated clowns, it does not matter, play 1.h4 h5)
Grand Prix - Depends. With 2.Nc3, 2...a6 and 3...b5 is equal. 2 f4, 2...d5!
Alapin - 2...Nf6 =
Prins - and I say this as one who plays it as White - The early ...Qb6 lines where Qd2 and Kd1 are forced by White and Hedgehog lines are both equal with best play
What about Chekhover (Qxd4)? Sometimes I play dragon as black, and my opponents play it against me. I actually have no great way to deal with it (though admittedly openings are my weakness)
My time of playing the Najdorf was extremely brief, which had I faced Qxd4, would have played 4...a6 and 5...Nc6. That said, I played the Taimanov mostly when I played the Sicilian and it was via 2...e6.
No 4.Qxd4
No Prins
No Moscow
No Rossolimo
Lots of b3 and King's Indian Attack. Neither were an issue.
It does seem that 2 ... e6 and 2 ... d6 fair better against anti-Sicilians.
However, 2 ... Nc6 is better than 2 ... d6 against any sort of delayed wing gambit or delayed Smith-Morra ...
2 ... d6 seems to be better statistically, and that is with the Dragon pulling black's stats down.
Move orders get very complicated, intricate and sophisticated in the Sicilian.
My advice to anyone wanting to play anti-Sicilians is that their anti-Sicilian repertoire should be custom tailored. White should not ever avoid the open Sicilian all together. I understand it's too much, but trash like the Alapin and wing gambit should stay in the dumpster where it belongs.
If someone plays 2 ... Nc6, go with the Rossolimo. If someone plays 2 ... d6, then a delayed Smith-Morra is probably fine. White can even play 2.Nc3 and 3.Nge2 and wait to see if he/she wants to push d2-d4 ...
There are even more ideas to vary sequences.
It's entirely understandable if someone isn't prepared to meet all of black's 2nd move options with the open Sicilian. It's a lot of work.
Anti-Sicilians are best for those that also play the Sicilian with black. If you're playing the Sicilian, then you have to learn to play against anti-Sicilians, anyway. Why not utilize your knowledge with white? Just don't avoid the open Sicilian all together just because one particular Sicilian defense gives you problems ... when you can just work around it for whatever length of time.
Just wondering...What line with black makes you say that the Moscow is a joke? @ThrillerFan
Dude he never said that the Moscow was a joke
He said any anti-Sicilian except Rossolimo and Moscow is a joke
After you go work on your reading skills, then we can discuss chess.
Ur stupid