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Bird's Opening - Classical Dutch

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Solmyr1234

Okay, I gave it a try yesterday, as a conclusion, I agree with the masters - this isn't so hot, because, to make a long story short - your king is too vulnerable after f4 - you must take care of him quickly, and so this extra tempo isn't enough to allow you to take over the dark diagonal (in the Dutch, the light diagonal), and if you do it Anyway, then you king is weak, and all of your "attacking on the kingside" fantasies of the Classical Dutch, are gone. okay, I tried.

Cancel. Abort.

Besides, it's a matter of personal taste - and the bishop and rook stuck in their places, tastes funny...

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Okay,I haven't tried (for White) 1.Nf3, and Botvinnik System of the English Opening - which seem like an e4 opening, but e4 is protected. it also seem like a better version of the Stonewall Dutch:

https://www.chess.com/article/view/english-opening-botvinnik-system

 

King very safe, you can push the f pawn, okay so life isn't perfect - Black has a horse-stable (=a knight-outpost). as GM Naroditsky said - in these levels, if you want an omelette, you need to break some eggs.

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"Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don’t have. Just dreaming about nice things is meaningless—like chasing the wind." Ecclesiastes 6:9

GBTGBA

I have a tournament Dutch Defense Against the Bird. Can I post the link ?

Solmyr1234

sure

GBTGBA
Solmyr1234 wrote:

sure

Thank you 🙂

https://www.chess.com/tournament/christmas-dutch-defense-against-the-bird-tournament 

B1ZMARK
YouShisno wrote:

@B1ZMARK the line you give from the national master doesn't seem so bad. After trading the bishops Nc3 seems pretty equal. But even before that, on c6 or even Qb6+ doesn't d4 just solve the problems with that line, or am I missing something?

D4 doesn’t mesh well when I have a bishop on g2. It’s just a slightly subpar stonewall

ipcress12

BIZMARK:

I've let Stockfish 14 chew on this a few hours and it calls 6. d4 dead even, such as this line:

1. f4 g6 2. Nf3 d5 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 c6 5. O-O Qb6+ 6. d4 Nf6 7. c4 O-O 8. Nc3
Rd8 

Looks fine to me for White too. I wouldn't call it a subpar Stonewall.

According to Stockfish, 6. Kh1 is not as good.

 

B1ZMARK
ipcress12 wrote:

BIZMARK:

I've let Stockfish 14 chew on this a few hours and it calls 6. d4 dead even

Pretty much all bird positions are dead even so that's not really much. I know it was going to be objectively even out of the opening when I decided to play it. 

I guess the pawn structure just looks ugly.

GBTGBA

The good thing about  playing bird forces me to aggressively attack my opponent. i’m by nature not an aggressive player. 

ipcress12

BIZMARK:

Stockfish rated your move 6. Kh1 varying around -0.35. Not dead even. And not a move I would choose myself.

I would be content to play White in the 6.d4 line I mentioned above.

B1ZMARK

The difference between -0.35 and 0.00 is actually quite small and doesn’t make a difference when playing against another person.

BryanCFB
ipcress12 wrote:

BIZMARK:

Stockfish rated your move 6. Kh1 varying around -0.35. Not dead even. And not a move I would choose myself.

I would be content to play White in the 6.d4 line I mentioned above.

The engine evaluation in this case only matters if playing against an engine.  When facing a human one has to play what they have a better feel for regardless of how the engine evaluates it, as long as it is not egregiously bad.

tygxc

Bird Opening and Dutch Defence are risky but playable. Example:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1899448 

nighteyes1234
B1ZMARK wrote:

The difference between -0.35 and 0.00 is actually quite small and doesn’t make a difference when playing against another person.

 

Well stated...and the attitude of the role of white.

You think white is a joke and the best is 0.00 and so why not go negative? Heck you might just quit as white. From a strategic view, totally pathetic.

B1ZMARK
nighteyes1234 wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:

The difference between -0.35 and 0.00 is actually quite small and doesn’t make a difference when playing against another person.

 

Well stated...and the attitude of the role of white.

You think white is a joke and the best is 0.00 and so why not go negative? Heck you might just quit as white. From a strategic view, totally pathetic.

Unless my memory fails me, we were talking about the birds opening, which is objectively just inferior to many other choices by white. It’s just hovering around equal. Sometimes slightly plus, sometimes slightly minus.

Trying for an advantage is much different from actually having an advantage.

Solmyr1234
BryanCFB wrote:
ipcress12 wrote:

BIZMARK:

Stockfish rated your move 6. Kh1 varying around -0.35. Not dead even. And not a move I would choose myself.

I would be content to play White in the 6.d4 line I mentioned above.

The engine evaluation in this case only matters if playing against an engine.  When facing a human one has to play what they have a better feel for regardless of how the engine evaluates it, as long as it is not egregiously bad.

I must agree:

https://lichess.org/dTnNDomz/black#14

After Qd3 !! (I'm joking, not really - the double exclaim) the computer say White is winning by 8.6.

[the game is drawn because I offered a draw and he took it].

- the question is, how strongly you pressure your human opponent, and how hard it is for him to find the moves.

Solmyr1234
nighteyes1234 wrote:

From a strategic view, totally pathetic.

I beg to differ -  it's only about 0.06 pathetic, from a lazy amature [=me] view.

 

Pepper and Water Science Trick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho0o7H6dXSU

Wow! What a bore!

BryanCFB
Solmyr1234 wrote:
BryanCFB wrote:
ipcress12 wrote:

BIZMARK:

Stockfish rated your move 6. Kh1 varying around -0.35. Not dead even. And not a move I would choose myself.

I would be content to play White in the 6.d4 line I mentioned above.

The engine evaluation in this case only matters if playing against an engine.  When facing a human one has to play what they have a better feel for regardless of how the engine evaluates it, as long as it is not egregiously bad.

I must agree:

https://lichess.org/dTnNDomz/black#14

After Qd3 !! (I'm joking, not really - the double exclaim) the computer say White is winning by 8.6.

[the game is drawn because I offered a draw and he took it].

- the question is, how strongly you pressure your human opponent, and how hard it is for him to find the moves.

Well this particular game relied on two extreme blunders which should have been decisive and therefore this game does not provide the best example of engine analysis not mattering when playing a human because as I alluded to if the engine evaluation is extreme it can be relied on.  But I do get your main point which is basically when facing a human anything can happen regardless of how the engine evaluates the position.

Solmyr1234

exactly! You're very balanced in your thinking, and this is key to success in everything. good points!

pfren

What's wrong with 5.Nc3 (with the typical d3/e4 idea) after 4...c6?

There's not such a hurry for white to castle.