Breyer, Marshall or Berlin Wall?

Wrong.

At that level, white speculates that Black may have forgotten the analysis.

There is no game played in most lines of the Marshall- you just reproduce your homework and take half a point... if someone has forgotten something, then... it's bad for him.

It doesn't happen frequently though, as the Marshall has very simple motifs. Everything is stereotyped tactics, and variations... more variations... and a tad of endgame technique to draw the drawn endgames.

The typical Pfren tactic!

• Shifting the goal posts.

• Shifting the blame to others.
  

We know this song and dance far far to well!

Than to top it off the Pfren snide insult!

A small tip: Give your next Marshall lesson to someone else. OK?

What a classy person you are SmyslovFan to respond to Pfren's insults so poetically!

If I was in that spot I would of apparently handled the situation so disrespectfully which is what psilohead said!

I would of told Pfren to stick that lesson were the sun doesn't shine!

I wouldn't pay Pfren to tie my shoes!

Let alone anything chess related.

There are nicer IM's in the world.

The strongest player to play 12.d4 in the last 4 years was Hou Yifan, who drew Leko. On super GM level it hasn't been seen since 2012, while 12.d3 is seen constantly with respectable results. There must be a reason for this.

Its certainly not worse for white, but we must sometimes ask ourselves "why"? Why hasn't it been played in 4 years?

Since 2012, I've only found 17 games where the Marshall was played between two opponents rated +2700, and some of those were blitz or rapid games. Yes, 12.d3 is the most common choice of those few games. But the Marshall is rarely played at the elite levels anyway. Most often, it's White who avoids it because it's considered so drawish. 

But elsewhere, Pfren berated people for acting as if 2500s and 2600s aren't elite players. By Pfren's standard of +2500, the Spanish Marshall with 12.d4 has been played by elites as recently as October 2015. 

The point is that 12.d4 is still played for the win by Grandmasters. 12.d3 is also played for the win by Grandmasters, and is currently marginally more popular. But the Marshall is not at all popular because it is so difficult to avoid a draw. 

Today, the best way to play for a win against the top 20 in the world in the Spanish is to play ultra quiet d3 lines and strive to transpose into Breyer-esque lines later on.  That's how Magnus and the rest of the top 20 have approached the Spanish most recently. The Berlin is also tried quite a bit.

If my memory does not fade me, the first thing they told me was that only games against serious opponents, not blitz is what counts, then it became apparent that the serious opponents were only at the national level, and only the title of national master counts, at that point I lost all interest since I went to faculty, job and bla bla, when I came back the infamous weak players, but good blitz players ( not that I'm bad at it, on the contrary ) became national masters, with no ambition whatsoever to play some serious chess, that alone was basically in contradiction with the previous speeches that only the title of national master means something, but since many of them have had only that, what happens is that the so called terribly unsound players, but good only at blitz, got promoted to geniuses, since only a genius without a clue of theory or anything related to serious chess can be successful at the national level. I wonder what's next. As for d3 in the Marshall, I, as the one playing it, as black, can only say that I do not fear a bit when they are not playing the aforementioned move. So much from me. As for Breyer, I always loved it but never played it, at least not in a serious tournament other than in a few bullet games. Berlin, on the other hand is too passive for my liking, therefore I  never went to study the related intricancies.

Cheers

It seems as though the d4 Berlin has scored better recently than any anti Marshall. I play 8.a4 myself but it seems declawed at top level..

Well, Peter Svidler had a hard time twice in the candidates tournament after 8.a4, although he did manage drawing one game. Himself said that he was lost in the game he drew against Topalov.

The Yates is a also a sound choice. Drawmaster Giri picked this one at the London Chess Classic against Magnus. The game was (of course!) drawn, but it was very interesting, full of positional subtleties. It was a good game, not just an excibition of computer moves worked out at home.

What is Yates?

8.d4 d6 9.c3. Also applicable after 8.c3 d6 9.d4.

After 9...Bg4 white has two different solutions to the pressure towards d4. I think 10.Be3 is very interesting.

Especially when Black takes on e4 with the knight.

We have to assume he won't blunder like that!

 In that case you will not be surprised if i tell you that Black made it systematic ( twice in a year). 

 After 14...Qf5 if White is not well prepared its easy on OTB conditions to make this blunder (Nxe4) looks testing!

As you said, instead of White, now Black speculates that White might has forgotten something. Chess besides all its a psychology game with a lot of mind tricks. 

Well... Hrant probably likes provocation.

It didn't work that well for him against a well prepared young (15 y.o.) Aussie IM.

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No, I'm not the deep trut, like you. If you are down a pawn you are lost? Since when?

Many peeps on this forum seem to be a huge fan of the Breyer or at least that is the impression I have been getting through my course of reading this thread.

Which makes me wonder has anyone given any consideration to lines which arise out of the Berlin Defense which don't enter the Berlin Wall Endgame?

For example:

I am a huge fan of the move 4.d3 which avoids the Berlin Wall Endgame.

Furthermore, I was inspired by this move after seeing Magnus play it on several occasions.

Is there any Berlin Defense players out there?

To put it frankly I have little interest in the Breyer or the Marshall.

Between all three different lines.

I am more afraid of the Berlin Defense than the Breyer or Marshall!

To me nothing will ever be more frieghtening than the Berlin Defense.

In the Breyer they play (Nb8).

A backward retreating knight move.

In the Marshall they give up a pawn for a coffe house attack.

In the Berlin they are coming after you and they are not giving you anything or retreating anything.

I sometimes think chess forums are backwards.

I mean everyone has talked about the Breyer & the Marshall.

We talked about those lines into we are like blue in the face.

Yet none of them have been played in World Championship matches for decades upon decades like the Berlin Defense.

You would think people would want to talk about the Berlin Defense first.

Instead they talk about the Marshall Attack which gets played every 20 years.

Jose Capablanca never even saw the Marshall Attack before and he refuted it on the board the day Frank Marshall tryed it against him.

I have a tip for you guys & gals.

If by some miracle a player plays the Marshall Attack against you.

The tip I give you is to resign the game.

As soon as they play it resign.

Now you might say how does this tip help? The reason my tip will help is because in the short and long term you can resign this 1 game lose 20 points and still make over 100+ point in profit by simply studying other stuff!

This shows how irrelevant the Marshall is!

Anatoly Karpov played chess for I don't know how long 10-20 years?

Guess what he said?

In one of his quotes a person asked him about the Marshall.

Do you know what he said?

He said "He never faced it in his entire chess career".

Anatoly basically looked at the guy and said "Marshall Who?"

Leave the dead horse alone people!

Lets talk about the Berlin Defense!

@jengaias, oh, you beat me first in saying that.