Budapest Gambit

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darkunorthodox88

The budapest has a similar problem to the Chigorin defense, even if white doesnt have an outright refutation (say the same way the latvian gambit is busted), white has way to many pleasant lines to claim a larger than average advantage and in a few of the critical lines, black is walking an objectivity tight rope where the reward is just surviving. 

darkunorthodox88
pfren wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

The budapest has a similar problem to the Chigorin defense, even if white doesnt have an outright refutation (say the same way the latvian gambit is busted), white has way to many pleasant lines to claim a larger than average advantage and in a few of the critical lines, black is walking an objectivity tight rope where the reward is just surviving. 

 

What's the problem with the Chigorin?

It is an absolutely sound defence, where white has trouble demonstrating a slight edge, let alone an "outright refutation".

i dont think Chigorin is refuted. Its just a big homework defense where white has many different tries for advantage. I dont think its as sound as say, the 1.e4 nc6 2.d4 d5 Nimzowitsch defense, where only 3.e5 seems like a real try for advantage. Its more like the pirc where white has many acceptable set ups and black must do lots of homework to take a little longer to equalize. 

I went through a period where i had to decide between 1.d4 nc6 2.c4 and either 2.d5 or e5 and i found the e5 positions much easier to play despite preferring the d5 nimzowitsch lines to the e5 lines. 

and i think both Chigorin and Budapest reflect an innate difference between 1.d4 vs 1.e4 lines. Its that much harder to Spice a game up as black vs d4 so black must take slightly more risk to the objectivity of the position. There is no equivalent to the Sicilian vs d4. All the attempts to really win like the KID,  dutch, benoni, and arguably even the Grunfeld carry inherently more risk. The closest one to the asymmetrical but sound nature of the sicilian is probably the nimzo-indian and black cant even force it .

Donnsteinz

Yeah Chigorin isn't a very reliable main opening.

Steven-ODonoghue
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

I went through a period where i had to decide between 1.d4 nc6 2.c4 and either 2.d5 or e5 and i found the e5 positions much easier to play despite preferring the d5 nimzowitsch lines to the e5 lines. 

I agree, 1.d4 Nc6 2.c4 e5! is basically the core of 1...Nc6 vs. 1.d4, so it would be a shame to cop out with 2...d5

After 3.d5 do you favor 3...Bb4+ or 3...Nce7? Schuyler convinced me that the former is probably more objectively correct, but I find that 3...Nce7 is more likely to lead to quick wins against bad players since the dark squared bishop stays on the board.

darkunorthodox88
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

I went through a period where i had to decide between 1.d4 nc6 2.c4 and either 2.d5 or e5 and i found the e5 positions much easier to play despite preferring the d5 nimzowitsch lines to the e5 lines. 

I agree, 1.d4 Nc6 2.c4 e5! is basically the core of 1...Nc6 vs. 1.d4, so it would be a shame to cop out with 2...d5

After 3.d5 do you favor 3...Bb4+ or 3...Nce7? Schuyler convinced me that the former is probably more objectively correct, but I find that 3...Nce7 is more likely to lead to quick wins against bad players since the dark squared bishop stays on the board.

i actually agree with schuyler's assessment that bb4+ is objectively superior but much prefer nce7. The only particularly worrisome lines there are some where white plays h4 at precisely the right time, but the amount of times i ever faced it are virtually nil. The rest of the lines are fairly harmless for black because the extra tempo was wasted on c4 which is not particularly advantageous. (there is no be6 equivalent to worry about because you can land bb4+ thanks to c4 being played). 

Steven-ODonoghue
darkunorthodox88 wrote:.

 Nimzowitsch defense, where only 3.e5 seems like a real try for advantage.

Really? Isn't 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.d5  just known to be good for white, or am I mistaken?

4...Ne5 is met with 5.Qd4 and 4...Nb8 is met with 5.f3 exf3 6.Qxf3

darkunorthodox88
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:.

 Nimzowitsch defense, where only 3.e5 seems like a real try for advantage.

Really? Isn't 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.d5  just known to be good for white, or am I mistaken?

4...Ne5 is met with 5.Qd4 and 4...Nb8 is met with 5.f3 exf3 6.Qxf3

yeah, for a long time this was the fear, but the 4...nb8 line works fine. 

yeah the gambit line can be dangerous if black takes on f3, but after 5.f3 e6 and merely developing your pressure on d5 via, e6 nf6, bb4 etc, black equalizes. 

ChessSBM

My latest match was Budapest Gambit, I was white and made a stupid blunder.

I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA

Shankland against budapest

ChessSBM

Something like this might look better?

I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA

No but we do need to develop the kingside and though it's look good but black has counter play here and we have more pieces on kingside so mainly we should either play in the center or on king side as black pieces are already on queenside

ChessSBM

Something like Nge2, then after black plays O-O we play g4  attacking the king side of black?

Donnsteinz

 

Donnsteinz

Yess, for once I'm right on my facts. A quick google search seems to confirm this:

This variation is named after Alekhine thanks to his wins in the games Alekhine–Rabinovic (Baden Baden, 1925) and Alekhine–Seitz (Hastings, 1926).[55][105][notes 6] White does not try to keep its material advantage (the e5-pawn) and concentrates on establishing a strong pawn centre and space advantage.

Taylor considers 4...Nxe5 inferior, recommending instead a rarely played idea of Richard Réti, 4...h5! (Taylor's exclamation point). Then 5.Nf3 would allow 5...Bc5, while Taylor suggests meeting 5.Be2 with 5...Nc6! and 5.f4 with 5...Bc5 with quick development compensating for the lost pawn. He considers the main line to be 4...h5 5.h3 Nxe5 6.Be3 Bb4+, with good play for Black.

- Wikipedia.

I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA

Wtf donstienitz you r still relaing on game played in 1926 in the age of alpha zero, leela zero, stockfish thats ridiculous 

 

I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA

You should not look for a model game of certain variation leads than 5 -10 years as there is a chance of novelty bieng found  found in master games  just few years later

sndeww
I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA wrote:

Wtf donstienitz you r still relaing on game played in 1926 in the age of alpha zero, leela zero, stockfish thats ridiculous 

 

Unfortunately for you, in a book about the Budapest Gambit by Timothy Taylor (which I have) h5 is the recommended move. And while the engines back when he wrote it are certainly no alpha zero, it’s not so easily dismissed either.

I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA

But still common 1926 is too old

Donnsteinz
I_PLAYLIKE_CARUANA wrote:

Wtf donstienitz you r still relaing on game played in 1926 in the age of alpha zero, leela zero, stockfish thats ridiculous 

 

No, I'm referring to a book by GM Taylor a few years ago, where he basically revitalized this line for black. It's actually black's most popular response to the Alekhine attack according to Mega DB 22.

Kaliman555

I've played this with black in the past with decent results...although occasionally I just get smashed.

https://youtu.be/AfIW4WkUhkg