Please fix your notation (for example, I assume that the notation in the first line should read 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4). Maybe we could better understand you after that.
Caro Kann, non exchange "Advanced version"
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Estragon wrote:
It's not good. Wasting a tempo that early can't work out well. While Black retains a diagonal for his problem Bc8, White now has the option to make e5 the strong point and not worry about d4. An early d4xc5 is likely, but probably just 4 Nf3 first.
White should definitely avoid c2-c3, as after Black's wasted time it is unnecessary.
Just play 3 ...Bf5. ...c5 can be played later if appropriate - develop first, the tempo on ...c6 can't be taken back.
Actually, the current consensus about 3. ..c5 is that it isn't worse than 3. ..Bf5.
There are lots of interesting variations after 3. ..c5, but black definitely has his share of the chances.
Alphastar18 wrote:
Estragon wrote:
It's not good. Wasting a tempo that early can't work out well. While Black retains a diagonal for his problem Bc8, White now has the option to make e5 the strong point and not worry about d4. An early d4xc5 is likely, but probably just 4 Nf3 first.
White should definitely avoid c2-c3, as after Black's wasted time it is unnecessary.
Just play 3 ...Bf5. ...c5 can be played later if appropriate - develop first, the tempo on ...c6 can't be taken back.
Actually, the current consensus about 3. ..c5 is that it isn't worse than 3. ..Bf5.
There are lots of interesting variations after 3. ..c5, but black definitely has his share of the chances.
Yeah this is true. It is a matter of taste. c5 is definately sound if you know what you are doing.
Estragon wrote:
Despite the detailed rebuttals, I remain unconvinced!
Well GMs, books and database statistics speak for themselves on this matter. It's just as sound as Bf5
RainbowRising, and Shaakali, I'm not terribly interested in knowing I made a mistake in typing up the background information of the Caro Kann, this article is about e4 c6 d4 d5 e5 c5. The rest is virtually irrelevant.
Thank you, though, to Estragon, AtahanT, and Alphastar18, for really, really good feedback. I have decided to stay with Bf5, because after c5, Bb6+ is very annoying, resulting in doubled pawns.
Actually, Bd7 would block the check without worrying about doubled pawns. the c5 variation is a good surprise move for Black. It was played in one of the Tal-Botvinnink WC matches and is advocated by Housaka in her terrific book on the Caro Kann.
Silver... what's the name of the book? I want to read it. :). Thanks for your ideas.
oozecube2 wrote:
Silver... what's the name of the book? I want to read it. :). Thanks for your ideas.
Perhaps it is this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-Caro-Kann-Complete-Repertoire-Everyman/dp/1857444345
I think the main difference between 3. ..Bf5 and 3. ..c5 is that after the former, black gets his usual ultra-solid position and is telling white "come and get me", basically asking white to over-extend his position in some way.
Whereas with 3. ..c5 black immediately starts a struggle for the initiative, not without risks (but, as said, theory suggests black is doing fine) but resulting in dynamic positions.
3. ..c5 is also a practical choice, because white does not have a huge range of options (after 3. ..Bf5 white can choose any of h4, g4, c4, c3, Nf3, Nc3, Ne2, Nd2, Be3) so there is less theory to learn. And it is also more aggressive.
This variation of the Caro-Kann has been played a great deal in the past couple of years. That is, more than one would expect. Here is a recent game from the European Championships.
I think black lost the above game in the middlegame, not in the opening. Certainly if white plays 4. dxc5 and then allows black to just recapture on c5 with the bishop, I think black gains easy equality. The variation played here is not threatening at all. But black's moves from move 10 to 13 are very hard for me to understand. First he gives up his nice dark-squared bishop, then he castles right into the b-file he just opened for his opponent. I think black should be fine after 10. ..a6 (11. Bxc6 then bxc6 so black can challenge the d4-square later on).
I think these 'french advance' positions where white captures on c5 should be compared to the classical steinitz french opening. Surely white is much more optimally placed there, but even then he often has difficulties proving an advantage.
In the advance caro my database gives 3.... Bf5 scoring 46% with both 3.... c5 and 3... g6 scoring 48% ....... oh , and 3... Qb6 also at 48% . However, 3.... Bf5 is , by far, more popular. Do y'all have similar percentages ?
I don't know about that, but percentages don't do anything for me at all.
Ok, so I'm an avid player of the caro Kann, whether it be main line e4 c6 d4 d5 Nf3 dxe4 Nxe4 Nf6, the non-main line exchange version, which switches to the scandinavian - e4 c6 d4 d5 exd5 Qxd5.
It's always sort of puzzled me what to do in response to the push pawn variation though. i.e. e4 c6 d4 d5 e5. I would normally play something to the effect of Bf5, which is often followed by g4 Bg5 h4 h6 h5 Bh2, resulting in a massive space advantage to white, but somewhat better development for black. Now, though I'm looking at (following 3.e5), the "advanced version" of 3...c5. It looks like this
I was wondering what everyone thinks about this variation. It looks a lot like a french without having played e3, allowing for the light colored bishop to go to an advanced position, but black is down a tempo.