comooooo έγραψε:
if i continue 4...c5 how do you continue then?-dont want this to become a stockfish correspondence game in the comment section though lol
Replying to trolls is futile, sir.
Good Response to 1.c4
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The topic of the thread is how to respond to c4 anyway. Any suggestions for black the second player?
Masters do lean towards 1..Nf6, but that can transpose to anything and you have to know a lot-not too cool for the amateur player.
Dec 11, 2017
0
#24
hi
c4 are huge theoretical opening because it is flexible. it transposes to different line many times seems to anything like slav,caro-kann - panov transfer sometimes and tons of variations/ structure are there. so either side players get double edged position any in certain extent. however, vishy naka's choices are mostly as a black is e5 or c6. have a look at this old game. And other sub-variation after c6 as a black.
In recent interview in Grand chess tour after drawing with adams/karjakin with english vishy told "there is still some unknown line exist what he will explore". it opens up huge options for either side. have a look with nepomitchi game that he won against vishy.
- English, Caro-Kann defensive system
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3
- English, Torre defensive system
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3 Nf6 4. g3 Bg4
- English, London defensive system
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3 Nf6 4. g3 Bf5
- English, Caro-Kann defensive system
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3 Nf6 4. Bb2
- English, Bled variation
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3 Nf6 4. Bb2 g6
- English, New York (London) defensive system
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3 Nf6 4. Bb2 Bf5
- English, Capablanca's variation
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3 Nf6 4. Bb2 Bg4
- English, Caro-Kann defensive system, Bogolyubov variation
1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. b3 Bg4
you can try nf6 too.
interesting reading would be The Dynamic English : The aggresive player's guide to a traditional chess opening
thanks in advance
comooooo wrote:
if i continue 4...c5 how do you continue then?-dont want this to become a stockfish correspondence game in the comment section though lol
The fact that you pushed the c pawn at 2 pushes to c5 instead of one should already tell you you commited some positional inaccuracy, losing a tempo. Besides, you are playing black, so you situation is quite precarious.
Here is what SF plays at 1 sec. per move:
As you see, its score from 0.0 increases to 50cps white advantage, but only after 20 full moves.
That should ring a bell. Of course, SF did not play perfect for either side, it vastly misunderstands such positions, and it is just a aingle game, but I have analysed this in-depth and can only confirm white should get quite some edge with perfect play.
The main plan is to push the white pawns on the king side, where the black king will reside.
The main difference between the 2 camps is that the e5 advanced defended pawn is close to the black king, while the d4 equivalent not so to the white. This is quite substantial.
pfren wrote:
comooooo έγραψε:
if i continue 4...c5 how do you continue then?-dont want this to become a stockfish correspondence game in the comment section though lol
Replying to trolls is futile, sir.
The only troll could be you; I already posted some games and diagrams to collaborate my claims, and you posted nothing.
It really hurts chess is not solved and there is some substantial new theory, so most of the lines strong titled players have been swotting suddenly become irrelevant and a waste of time, right?
One thing GM PfRen can not understand is I am playing and analysing 5 times more than him.
Pity. It's not necessary to be agressive.
comooooo wrote:
The topic of the thread is how to respond to c4 anyway. Any suggestions for black the second player?
Masters do lean towards 1..Nf6, but that can transpose to anything and you have to know a lot-not too cool for the amateur player.
1...Nf6 is simply weak; it blocks the f pawn too early.
E4
Dec 12, 2017
0
#30
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
comooooo wrote:
The topic of the thread is how to respond to c4 anyway. Any suggestions for black the second player?
Masters do lean towards 1..Nf6, but that can transpose to anything and you have to know a lot-not too cool for the amateur player.
1...Nf6 is simply weak; it blocks the f pawn too early.
fabi played Nf6 and get the result on board draws/wins . it depends upon the players' Repertoire. 
nevertheless carlsen plays schimidt benoni and he won against top opponents. it depends upon the players' Repertoire.
The November 2017 issue of Chess lists the top twenty openings compiled from a list of 2402 September games where both players were rated over 2400 Elo. One can not take position on this list too seriously because it is greatly influenced by how the openings are grouped. For example, all the Retis are grouped together, while English is separated into 1...c5, 1...e5, etc. Nevertheless, for what it is worth, some of the list entries are: 126 Retis, 100 King's Indians, 97 Nimzo-Indians, 84 Caro-Kanns, 76 declined Queen's Gambits, 73 Slavs, 63 Catalans, 61 Najdorf Sicilians, 58 1...c5 Englishes, 55 Berlin Lopezes, 55 Queen's Indians, 49 Guioco Pianos, 48 1...e5 Englishes, 45 Kan Sicilians, 43 1...Nf6 Englishes, and 42 Taimanov Sicilians.
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov a écrit :
comooooo wrote:
The topic of the thread is how to respond to c4 anyway. Any suggestions for black the second player?
Masters do lean towards 1..Nf6, but that can transpose to anything and you have to know a lot-not too cool for the amateur player.
1...Nf6 is simply weak; it blocks the f pawn too early.
So many posts like this from u.
It just discredits u so i agree with Pfren (who is IM and not GM, u should learn to read), u are only trolling on this website, even Yigor's ideas are more useful.
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
Dolphin27 wrote:
I play 1...e5 and then if 2.Nc3 I instigate the Kramnik-Shirov Counterattack with 2...Bb4. It's a pleasure to immediately threaten the English player (many of whom consider their styles positional) with doubled pawns. White's only way to get an advantage is 3.Nd5 after which Black has three choices at their disposal so Black determines the shape of the game. This is extra annoying to the English players many of whom play 1.c4 because they're obsessed with being the one in control.
This loses to 3.Nd5.
3...Bf8!
I prefer Nf6.. followed by g6 and Bg7 swiftly
poucin wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov a écrit :
comooooo wrote:
The topic of the thread is how to respond to c4 anyway. Any suggestions for black the second player?
Masters do lean towards 1..Nf6, but that can transpose to anything and you have to know a lot-not too cool for the amateur player.
1...Nf6 is simply weak; it blocks the f pawn too early.
So many posts like this from u.
It just discredits u so i agree with Pfren (who is IM and not GM, u should learn to read), u are only trolling on this website, even Yigor's ideas are more useful.
I am trolling, but I have been posting some diagrams and top engine input, stats, while you did not do so. Why don't you try to refure my suggested line, then? You wanna try it? 1.c4 c6(? I say this is not optimal) 2. e4!(and I put here and exclam, you might want to refute me) d5 3.e5!(another exclam, this is the key move no one considers, for some reason, possibly because it keeps the position closed, and all modern theory is based on opening the game).
How do you refute that?
Someone said 3...d4 4. f4 c5. Well, this already has lost a tempo, as the c5 pawn arrived on its destination square in 2 pushes instead of one. Is not that obvious? Is not that suspicious?
Why should I be trolling, when I am the most serious on Earth and I guess this is obvious.
It's not my problem that you are accustomed to reading theoretical books that rely on human databases to build their theory. Not my problem. I have been investigating this and other lines very deep, scientifically, using statistical input from top engines, going until 40-50 plies depth in analysis, etc., so I am very serious and fully convinced I am right.
Just try to disprove that line and I will give you credit.
What do you want me to do on move 3, capture cd cd ed, and then play d4? Sorry, but this has already been played thousand times and it is boring to me. Besides, it is simply weak.
Nul nést prophete dans son pays.
I was just mentioning it on the other thread, people rely on human theory and are even proud of that.
I am just in the process of investigating Fischer games collection, and I am really appalled by the number of tactical mistakes he has made in his games. Couple of each and every game, serious at that, missing a win, missing a draw, getting into a lost position, etc.
Fischer is considered maybe the best player at that and his games an example of clarity and solidity.
I am afraid to check the other world champions.
And you are suggesting to me that I follow such type of play. Well, I would like to do a bit more, investigate a bit more. Why should that be reprehensible?
so u refuted Caro Kann, congrats!
U have some convictions which are different from all theoricians, ok.
After all, Alpha Zero uses a way to "think" different from other engines and it seems to work.
The problem with u is the way u preach : harsh, self satisfied, arrogant, and i could add some.
For all these reasons, i think i've wasted enough time (too much), so no need to talk about your variations.
poucin wrote:
so u refuted Caro Kann, congrats!
U have some convictions which are different from all theoricians, ok.
After all, Alpha Zero uses a way to "think" different from other engines and it seems to work.
The problem with u is the way u preach : harsh, self satisfied, arrogant, and i could add some.
For all these reasons, i think i've wasted enough time (too much), so no need to talk about your variations.
I guess this is only your very personal perception.
So far, I have not offended anyone, or refused to take part in a meaningful discussion.
So that, again, that is only your personal perception.
PS. Half of those threads here are really funny: I am accutomed to feedback, feedback and more feedback, while here it is mostly a bit of feedback and too many comments.
Of course, it is easier to comment than go mining for some knowledge.
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
I guess your database is rather small and involves mostly weak players.
There is a difference between what SF will say here and 10 moves later.
My positional evaluation also says white is much better.
For 1 c4 c6 2 e4 d5 3 e5, it gives 3...dxc4 4 Nf3(Bxc4 Qd4) Bg4 as best.
Even 3..Bf5 4 Qb3 Qb6 it says is deal equal.
3...d4 is interesting....although your fight with stockfish seems misleading because of its emphasis on space for early moves. I played 4 f4 h5 5 Nf3 Nh6 and you wont shake black's small advantage in stockfish. 6d3 Nf5.
if i continue 4...c5 how do you continue then?-dont want this to become a stockfish correspondence game in the comment section though lol