Zukertort wrote:
I wrote extensively about that in chapter 2 of Zuke 'Em[see section 2, beginning on page 41].
I
Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
colle and torre at peace
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RutherfordBHayes wrote:
pellik wrote:
Zukertort wrote:
Pellik, just as Black can intelligently choose setups that avoid the Phoenix-attack (or other forms of the Colle), White can also deviate when Black does so.
In fact, I don' t know of a single, good Colle book that actually suggests White use the Colle against everything. Palliser doesn't do that, Summerscale/Johnsen don't do that. I certainly don't either.
And I disagree that the d4-sidelines do nothing to attack Black's development. In fact, the entire point of the C-Z is to make Black's QB worthless. I wrote extensively about that in chapter 2 of Zuke 'Em [see section 2, beginning on page 41].
If Black develops in such a way as to forestall problems developing his Bishop, or if he develops it too early, than White will switch gears and seek to exploit that choice.
A good Colle player should be playing it about 15-35% of the time depending on the local variations and your personal repertoire choices in certain lines where the Colle is reasonable but White has other options as well (some lines of the QID, for example).
Wow, I remember this thread. I don't know why I was so argumentative about the colle 9 months ago.
I looked at the beginning of chapter 2 in your link. In all of those lines black played e6 very early and created his own development problems. Without pressure on d5 I don't see any reason for this move.
Here's the lines I like against the colle (well, 'lines' 'against the colle' seems a bit much). I'm curious to know what you recommend in your book against them.
To my eye it just seems like black has free development and a reasonable position.
I would play 4.dxc5 and force black to prove that his queenside ambition was justified.
It looks as if this is what Summerscale advocates, aiming for a reversed Noteboom. Palliser suggests 4.e4. Rudel gives 4.c4.
what's Rudel,s rating
pellik wrote:
4. e4 is just losing.
Sorry, misquoted. That's Palliser on stuff with 2...c5. Was thinking ahead to my experience with Summerscale and just quoting Palliser without really looking. Against the line above, Palliser in fact offers the reversed Noteboom stuff along with Summerscale.
4. c4 heading into a reverse tarrasch makes some sense, but committing to an IQP when black hasn't played e6 could be tricky.
Probably equal with best play, but then what isn't? ...e6 comes swiftly in most lines, and if black insists on a quick bishop sortie to the kingside, you play disciplined Qb3 chess and try to make him prove the value.
I'd imagine a reverse noteboom would require c3 be played already? I can see some chance to fight for a real advantage out of a proper reverse QGA with 5. a3, but even then it seems a difficult position to fight for a win from.
A reverse Noteboom would require that c3 be played EVENTUALLY, not already. The nature of reversed openings is that white tends to be a tempo ahead of where he'd be as black. Summerscale argues that white has the time and resources to play b4 immediately against ...e6, and only later follow up with c3.
Jul 16, 2012
0
#26
I'm an e4 player but am interestded in the Colle. What moves by black would lead white not to play the colle if that was whites initial plan? Anything other than d5? What should white transpose to in those situations?
I play the Tarrasch and always feel like I'm winning with the early c5 against a colle setup.
the QID set-up usually equalises against the colle like no other especially if white messes up the move order even a little. Of course if you hate the colle just play the anti-colle ...Bf5
You run into all sorts, satxusa.
But against Colle-folk who want to play for an edge if they can, they'd be very likely to play their Colle setup against 1...d5 stuff. (Though some will deviate to a London against an early ...Nc6. Especially Zukertort players. The c3 of the Koltanowski deters the knight enough to allow Bd3 ideas to continue unhampered.)
They'll also almost certainly play it against 1...Nf6 2...e6 stuff. That's pretty much the Colle dream opposition.
Lots of Colle players will deviate after 1...Nf6 2...g6. (Or 1...g6.) Some will play Be2 and head into a Zukertort a la Norowitz, others will head to a London, Spassky style, still more will play a Barry Attack or 150 as advocated by Summerscale and Palliser. Mainline KID stuff is also an option there. But most typical Colles fall flat if white continues down system lines.
I think most Colle players will deviate against 1...f5. And 1...c5 forces him to accept the prospect of dealing with a quick exchange if he doesn't push into Benoniland. Possible neither option will suit his style.
Ah, right.
Against 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5, you'll force white to either adopt a Be2 setup, to exchange away his attacking chances, or to move into a c4/Qb3 idea. I'd hesitate to play this as black, though, because if white is willing to play c4 and Qb3, I think he's going to come out of the opening pretty strongly placed. Pretty sure that's advocated in every Colle book ever written, too.
Actually, you should play the London System. It is also very similar to the torre and colle. It is a system so you can use it against almost any defense. This opening is also more active and Black usually doesn't know how to play against it.
Pellik, just as Black can intelligently choose setups that avoid the Phoenix-attack (or other forms of the Colle), White can also deviate when Black does so.
In fact, I don' t know of a single, good Colle book that actually suggests White use the Colle against everything. Palliser doesn't do that, Summerscale/Johnsen don't do that. I certainly don't either.
And I disagree that the d4-sidelines do nothing to attack Black's development. In fact, the entire point of the C-Z is to make Black's QB worthless. I wrote extensively about that in chapter 2 of Zuke 'Em [see section 2, beginning on page 41].
If Black develops in such a way as to forestall problems developing his Bishop, or if he develops it too early, than White will switch gears and seek to exploit that choice.
A good Colle player should be playing it about 15-35% of the time depending on the local variations and your personal repertoire choices in certain lines where the Colle is reasonable but White has other options as well (some lines of the QID, for example).
Wow, I remember this thread. I don't know why I was so argumentative about the colle 9 months ago.
I looked at the beginning of chapter 2 in your link. In all of those lines black played e6 very early and created his own development problems. Without pressure on d5 I don't see any reason for this move.
Here's the lines I like against the colle (well, 'lines' 'against the colle' seems a bit much). I'm curious to know what you recommend in your book against them.
To my eye it just seems like black has free development and a reasonable position.
I would play 4.dxc5 and force black to prove that his queenside ambition was justified.