Colle-Zukertort, your experiences please

 Indeed, White should play c4 there...but then you have an "Errot," which happens to be the very last section in the main part of my book [Section 8, chapter 11].

...c6 is a good waiting move if White doesn't know what he is doing. In particular, White might be coaxed into a commitment that he rues later. 

If White does know what he is doing, though, the ...c6 line is far less critical than either the direct 3...Bg4 or the Slav (the two systems the Errot is sort of a hybrid between.)

I ended up ordering "A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire," Summerscale.  Borders says they can get it in 3-4 weeks.  We'll see.  It will cover most of what I want.  I will probably also click buy on "White Opening System Combining: Stonewall Attack, Colle System, Torre Attack," Soltis, just for curiosity.

I've been looking into these openings for a few weeks and still think they're an easy repertoire for white (Colle-Z and similar against black's classical defense, and Barry attack and similar aginst blacks Kingside fianchetto defense) and easy way to spend much of my time on middle game tactics but still have an opeining system and not relying just on natural opening moves approach.  Also plenty of engaging attack chances and tactics in the games, but not the wound-way-up-ready-to-uncoil sharp stuff as found following some openings.

I still have my KIA, and working slowly on Reti, and very, very slowly on English ;).  But this Colle and Barry I think will be relatively quick learning curve and fun interlude.

Thanks everyone for your help here.  I would have had a very hard time mapping out this area of openings without buying a bunch of books up front, without your help.  Much appreciated.

You might want to try Nigel Davies' DVD on the colle-zukertort.  I have 3 of his DVDs and have found them to be very helpful/instructive in my opening play.

AQUAMAN,

My recommendation is UNORTHODOX CHESS OPENINGS, by Eric Shiller for off beat openings like this.  I gather from this book that Zuckertort was quite the attacking player.  As has been said I prefer the Van Geet Opening.  Anyway Shiller gives you a feel for what is sound and what is unsound; and which grandmasters employ what "off the wall" openings.  Personally I see nothing wrong with Bird's Opening (which is not considered by Shiller as unorthodox and not included), and have no fear of the From Gambit (Just keep the pawn).  The From gambit is covered quite well in COUNTER GAMBITS: BLACK TO PLAY AND WIN, by T.D. Harding.  At my level a tournament draw with an expert or master is just fine, Bird's opening being "drawish". I'll take it.

GRAW81,

There is great wisdom in what you are saying here about the Colle System and consentrating on the middle game and just what you should be doing.  I like the Trompovsky attack very much as well.  Hope AQUAMAN and other players take you seriously AND REREAD YOUR COMMENTS.  The Torre Attack and Trompovsky would be a good change of pace.

wHarris, 

I lived in Glasgow for half a year, at Pitlockary Drive and the Paisley Road, when the old Rangers' stadium was not far away.  Wonderful people in Glasgow.  Love you all.  God Bless.

WHARRIS

Borders called today and said they can't get "A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire."  Bummer!

I just now notices wharris' last paragraph in post #20 as it's just above my text input box as I write this.

wharris --> "What turned 1. d4 around for me as an opening (went from about 50% wins to about 85%, against similar opposition) was 2. c4. Sharper, more ambitious, and still with lots of options to avoid theory, usually with an easier game than the Colle."

I'm aware that 2.c4 is the soundest follow-on to 1.d4, but I wasn't aware that there was a 2.c4 follow-on without much theory :).   There certainly aren't any 1.d4 2.c4 setup style openings, right?  Can anyone describe these options to avoid theory?  Is the idea to just learn the first 5 or so moves in the different Queen's Gambit lines and go natural moves from there?

Back to the colle class of openings, I do have "Beating the Anti-King's Indians, Gallagher, which has the Trompowski, Torre, and Barry.  It also illustrates strong play as black.  That's the point of the book, after all :).

I may have to take Graw81's advice and study some games on my own, too.  Part of the point of these simple setup openings is to get into the middle game without much fuss, so that approach would do it.  I'm still looking for the Summerscale book though, and hoping there's another printing soon.  I'm still at the stage where it's educational to read an experts description of the ideas behind the moves.

K123163, thanks for the note on the Davie's DVD.  I have his KIA DVD and agree his DVDs are very good.  I've viewed the first hour or so of the Summerscale DVDs, one on Colle-Z and one on the Barry.  Those are very good, too.  I figure with the Summerscale DVDs he probably goes over the same games in his book, so then I'd have the PGN and his comments in writing for posterity, if I ever get his book that is.

As to your question of playing lines of 2. c4 without knowing much theory, it is quite possible in many occasions.  Similar to the colle, knowledge of plans in the Queens Gambit Accepted lines and Queens Gambit declined lines are usually sufficient to have a good edge (not including those in the slav, which tend to be very sharp).   Knowing 5 moves deep and basic knowledge of each of the plans should be enough to start winning lots of games.  Then, as you grow as a player you will encounter moves and other defences that you will study and know a couple moves deeper in each variation.  

Here is  an example of the limited amount of theory you need to do well in some lines. This is the Queens Gambit accepted.  Basically, by following simple opening principles of getting your pieces out you can hold a slight advantage for a long time.  Also, it is usually to black's disadvantage to try to hold on to the c pawn with 3. b5.  This is because 4. a4 is strong and if 4...c6 then this can be met with 5.axb5 cxb5 6. Qf3!.  Hope this helps!  I can show you some other cool lines in 2.c4 if you found it helpful.

AquaMan wrote:

Borders called today and said they can't get "A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire."  Bummer!

I just now notices wharris' last paragraph in post #20 as it's just above my text input box as I write this.

wharris --> "What turned 1. d4 around for me as an opening (went from about 50% wins to about 85%, against similar opposition) was 2. c4. Sharper, more ambitious, and still with lots of options to avoid theory, usually with an easier game than the Colle."

I'm aware that 2.c4 is the soundest follow-on to 1.d4, but I wasn't aware that there was a 2.c4 follow-on without much theory :).   There certainly aren't any 1.d4 2.c4 setup style openings, right?  Can anyone describe these options to avoid theory?  Is the idea to just learn the first 5 or so moves in the different Queen's Gambit lines and go natural moves from there?

Back to the colle class of openings, I do have "Beating the Anti-King's Indians, Gallagher, which has the Trompowski, Torre, and Barry.  It also illustrates strong play as black.  That's the point of the book, after all :).

I may have to take Graw81's advice and study some games on my own, too.  Part of the point of these simple setup openings is to get into the middle game without much fuss, so that approach would do it.  I'm still looking for the Summerscale book though, and hoping there's another printing soon.  I'm still at the stage where it's educational to read an experts description of the ideas behind the moves.

K123163, thanks for the note on the Davie's DVD.  I have his KIA DVD and agree his DVDs are very good.  I've viewed the first hour or so of the Summerscale DVDs, one on Colle-Z and one on the Barry.  Those are very good, too.  I figure with the Summerscale DVDs he probably goes over the same games in his book, so then I'd have the PGN and his comments in writing for posterity, if I ever get his book that is.

One caveat regarding Davie's DVD, he chooses to respond to 3...Bg4 with 4.c4.  4.h3! is both potent and allows Black less reign. I promise you that if Black plays 3...Bg4, 90% of the time he will be less prepared (and less desiring) of 4.h3! than 4.c4.

Thing is, no novice or beginner will play QGA. Because they've all heard of QGD in newspapers or something [though they might not know that you can castle even if the relevant rook is attacked :)] - in fact most of then assume QGA is probably some horrible blunder ;)

The only players who will accept QG will be stronger players. Occasionally. [One extra reason can be to get practice at Caro-Kann Panov-Botvinnik black side.]

What ever you do as White dont end up repeating this miniture. This is an OTB tourney game that i played in 1998 Cork Congress (Open Tournament). I am Black and believe me, i was very happy that day!

:) something like that happened to me in 1978 and both I and opp burst out laughing! - couldn't control it --- opp hadn't realised he had my Q trapped until after I started laughing ...

I used to play the colle Zukertort

I stopped playing it for a while when I wanted more of the smell of blood in my games and converted to the Blackmar diemer gambit..... I'm now playing mostly Queens gambit with the Colle/Colle Zukertort as a surprise weapon.

A book I can suggest is "The Ultimate Colle" by Gary Lane.  It has chapters on the colle against Nc6, colle against Nbd7, C-Z against Nc6, C-Z against Nbd7, Colle/cz against Queens Indian, against Kings indian, against other systems.

A good book.

normajeanyates wrote:

:) something like that happened to me in 1978 and both I and opp burst out laughing! - couldn't control it --- opp hadn't realised he had my Q trapped until after I started laughing ...

It can easily happen indeed. My opponent ran out the door and i havnt seen his name on any rating lists or at any tournaments since that day. He probably never played ever again... although we should all get over stupid losses like that and move on.

Don't buy Dogs of War by Hatch  ... There is no variation Tree or index for the games ... i would like my money back ...