Considering the Budapest

By the pedigree of World Champions do you just mean there are the two games Spassky vs Illescas and Smyslov vs Blasec? In both these games Black made opening inaccuracies. In Smyslov vs Blasec, White played 6.Nc3 and instead of castling Black immediately took the pawn back, which allows the f4 attack with an extra tempo for White since he hasn't developed his light squared bishop yet. Though I've done some analysis and found that even here with the extra tempo the f4 attack gives White no advantage and the position after f4 is equal. Black has to know what they're doing and even put their king on d8 if necessary, if they decide to take the pawn back immediately after 6.Nc3 instead of 0-0. The point is Blasek didn't have to allow that in the first place so this game doesn't say anything objective about the merit's of an early f4. In Spassky vs Illescas, Illescas had equality. All he had to do is play normally with 10...d6 after Spassky went Kh1 instead of trying to force through the Drimer rook lift with 10...a5 and on 11.f4 go Nd7, with the idea Nf6 (controls e4 and all f4 has given White is a backwards e-pawn on a semi-open file) I believe also that 13...h6 was a mistake, preferable was g6 with an idea of f5 to blockade f4. Getting f5 in and blockading in this way is one of the few basic defensive ideas Black has to know. Objectively the attack isn't fearsome, because look, White hasn't developed their queenside, the bishop is still on c1 staring at a wall of pawns and blocking in the rook. As Steinitz said an attack can only succeed if it deserves to. This quick hack-attack White launches before they've completed their development doesn't deserve to succeed, and can only work if Black makes mistakes.

 My dear flying Dolphin! Please stay in the water and stop imagine sharks with out jews and teethes. The 6...Bxc3 line was considered the best approach for a long time but game after game lost it value to give black a considerable game plan to play for something more. If you watch any kind of serious Data you will notice that 6...Qe7 takes more and more preferences last years. Remember that you don't play the Budapest gambit to enter in to a drawish position, it supposed to fight for the unexpected. The " Schlechter knight " it's not something that can frighten white more than confuse black it self. The theory story with the double weaken c pawns and the twin knights no longer being attractive! We are in 2015. Nimzowitch time has pass! We live on the Jobava's twilight. Let's talk practical.

Ok, you know more than IM Taylor does. Great. Your analysis is clearly better and more trustworthy than his. 

Taylor didn't just provide a couple games, he gave statistics and analysis to support his opinion. 

Lol, oh man you're funny. Well ok, let's all throw away our copies of My System and start playing g5 in the opening as Black. I'm sure you'll always be ready with a diagram of moves to show how g5 is a forced win.

He does provide statistics, however the sample size of games from those positions is very low. There's actually one game in the book (Gliezerov vs Blatny) where Taylor proudly proclaims White's statistical winning percentage after f4 is 100%, then tells us this is the only game to have ever reached that position. In the Smyslov Blasek game he tells us White's winning percentage after f4 is 83% but the number of those games is in the single digits and one of the White wins was Smyslov against Blasek where Smyslov outrated his Black opponent by over 200 points.

SmyslovFan you always undermine whatever logical points you're trying to make by making it personal. No of course I don't know more than IM Taylor does about chess in general, and let's just say for the sake of argument that my analyses of that position is total garbage. That has nothing to do with the point that Blasek could have avoided all of that that by simply castling instead of immediately taking the pawn back. Then White would have gone Be2 and would have had to move the bishop  again if they wanted to try the hack-attack with f4.

Really seemed to me like Taylor made the recommendation to try and transpose to the Rubenstein variation after 4.Nf3 just so he wouldn't have to write an extra section about it.

Was your statement that the f4 plan has a "world champion pedigree" based on those two games by Spassky and Smyslov where their heavily outrated Black opposition made inaccuracies straight out of the gate?

@ achja

16.f3? Makes no sense, there is no Bb7 being played. I believe white should play again 16.Nb3 and challenge the c5 knight and after 16...Ba6 just 17.Nxc5 and after black recaptures there is a huge hole on the light squares where white can play for an advantage. The "Schlechter knight "game plan is an ancient trick-firework for chess players who are compromise to use the Budapest as an old positional opening to make a draw. I repeat again, if this is what you want from the Budapest gambit then you use a inappropriate opening to achieve something you can do much easier with the Stonewall Dutch or a Queens Gambit Ragozin.

Regarding games where World Champions did not heavily outrate their opponents in the Budapest...

Well, you won't find many games against a World Champion in the Budapest in a standard time control to begin with. There's a reason for that. 

Here's the only game I could find where a World Champion faced someone rated +2650 in a game that wasn't rapid or blitz:

Some of the moves in your diagrams don't make sense either Bishop_g5. Why would Black play Ne4 before castling?

It's funny to me that you didn't even know that Black should take on c3 to double the pawns in this line yet you're still acting like an expert about it. And hey, you don't even play this opening and you're an expert in it, wow. If you knew half the stuff you pretend to know you'd have a master title.

Just saving this.

Bumping my old posts and saving my current posts. You've developed quite the obsession haven't you?

I wanted to see the analysis you had done to reach the conclusion that Black was equal in the f4 lines.

I responded on topic and focused on the chess. I also saved your rather nasty personal attack on someone else for others to see. I'm sure that others can make up their minds about the value of your evaluation based on your analysis in that other thread.

Aww, you must have been a very sheltered child if you consider what I wrote a nasty personal attack.

I just think it's funny, at first Bishop_g5 writes that Black has "absolutely no counterplay" in the Rubenstein Nc3 variation. Then he's told about one the basic manuevers Black can use and immediately makes a diagram showing Black enacting this manuever before he's even completed his development yet. Along with authoritative annotations and comments about how this manuever he didn't know existed until a few minutes ago is bad.

The analysis in the other thread shows that even giving White the "f4 fling attack" with an extra tempo, (I'm not even going to call it the Spassky-Smyslov attack, that name makes it sound good, I'm just going to call it "the fling your f-pawn down the board attack") even giving him this with an extra tempo the position is unclear with a very slight advantage for White at most. And this is with an extra tempi, do you understand that? Imagine what it is when Black does what they normally do and waits to recapture the pawn so White doesn't get this extra tempi.

Contrary to what you believe, mindlessly flinging your f-pawn down the board as part of a cookie-cutter hack attack plan isn't a forced win, it's nothing.

I think those who are considering playing the Budapest may be interested in seeing precisely what you are talking about. 

Below is the game that Dolphin annotated, calling 11.f5? "standard". As far as I can tell, 11.f5 has not been played in that position. Rather, White plays 11.0-0.

I suggested reviewing the game Beliavsky-Mamedyarov. There are almost certainly improvements for Black, but the key for me is that

a) 11.f5 is not standard in that position

b) I did not talk about "mindlessly flinging [my] f-pawn down the board as a part of a cookie-cutter hack attack plan". Timothy Taylor didn't make any such claim either.

c) 11.0-0 f5 is not "completely equal", as Dolphin claims. Instead, I believe that White has a small but real advantage.

I bring this up again, not to continue some imaginary feud with Dolphin, but bring home the point that White gets an advantage in the main lines of the Budapest. It's probably not a winning edge, but it's a persistent one. And it's stuff that is well known. The Budapest can be a dangerous opening, especially in fast time controls. It can be a line that will draw in correspondence, but only if Black is willing to suffer for a long time. 

IM Timothy Taylor wrote a book on the Budapest from Black's perspective and was honest enough to point out lines where White is simply better.

The Budapest is not a good repertoire choice for most people simply because White has several paths to a nice edge.

Black has better options than the Budapest.

Kh1 is played some times, and to good effect!

Here's one example:

Notice that even with Kh1, White was in no hurry to push e3-e4, but instead won the game in by utilizing his more active pieces. 

Again, I am sure Black has improvements, but these games show that White has an edge.

Gelfand used this Kh1/f4 plan in his game against Rapport at Tata Steel last year and got a good position but Rapport found some chances and got a nice win. 

I just read a great quote:

The first big problem with the Budapest is that White may play 2.Nf3. The second big problem is that White may play 2.c4.

(Wish I could take credit for that line!)

@ Dolphin

You are obviously confused! I believe so much knowledge you got around opening ideas and move orders had affect your judgement to clarify what is important for any sort of position. You come down here in this thread to prove that the old main line of the Rubinstein Budapest has teeth but except from insulting wards and full of irony you showed nothing! You spoke for the Schlechter knight plan with out even know if 11... Ne4 is playable or not and you criticize my diagrams for your clumsiness to understand basic stuff! If you ever read the Moskalenko book instead of leaving it in to dust you will discover that the author remarks 11...Ne4!?. Of course this can not been happen because Flying Dolphin discovered the Budapest gambit and knows more. I tell you what!: Try to find first why some idea works and why not and then speak for the others. 6...Bxc3 it's an old fashion to play the Budapest and gives nothing than chess visions to satisfy your psychedelic prospects! Moskalenko writes that 11.e3 it's a mistake but proves nothing than giving games which are convenient to his theory. 11.g2 with the idea to fianchetto for white it's not the only best approach and black take shit from that line too.

I am really wondering if you ever have play the Budapest?!

I like BD. It's full of traps and in lower levels it's pretty destructive.

Well, it's true that the Bf4 line is the safest line for White, as Black's counterplay gets decreased, but it still isn't all decided, because even a perfectly logical move can be a blunder in BD.

I read the latter in a book The Fabulous Budapest gambit and the former is my experience :)

Excuse me IM Pfren, of course black should play ...Bxc3 and make a lot of sence but my point is why 6...or 7...? What is that, that makes this capture idea so imperative on the sixth or seventh move? Seirawan spoke because white has 7.Rc1 to recapture then with the rook but Rxc3 has some meaning only if black plays d6 before castles, because if he 0-0 first then I don't know what white should do with the rook on c3?! even with one pawn up.

After played the Budapest for one year i figure for my self and chess understanding that 6...Bxc3 don't serve the opening because this simplification drives the middle game in to a difficult path for both sides to handle. The Schlechter Knight trick promises more trouble than solutions and besides a positional squeeze doesn't offer a favorable continuation even if black capture the c pawn. I think that black has more chances for an upset if delay ...Bxc3