Does Black always have a disadvantage?

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ZapFalcon29

I've always seen that at the start of the game, at many times black is unable to get a rather dynamic or combative position from the opening. 

Any opening suggestions or sidelines which increase the spoce of the game from black? (other than the sicilian, cuz the theory and tabiyas are ridiculously huge) Currently I play the KID ,pirc and french so similar setups will be welcome

Falkentyne

Chess is always a draw when both sides play correctly.

One of the reasons for this is due to the drawing positions in pawn down endgames--a player who is defending can sacrifice a pawn to activate his rook to get behind an extra pawn and secure a draw, or get similar kinds of counterplay (like getting a rook to the 7th rank when a pawn down), and positions where you can draw a piece down. Likewise, the stalemate defenses possible as well. The defensive resources in chess are great.

The *only* real reason White has any advantage is purely a prep one-the player playing Black must be more prepared for multiple opening systems than White does, since, when White chooses his first move, this instantly takes out almost 1/3 of the openings that White needs to know theory on (excluding transpositions), while *Black* has to be prepared for *White* to play ANY opening and branching variations. For example, if white plays 1 e4, Black has to have multiple systems studied dealing with the Sicilian defense if he chooses 1...c5, or multiple lines studied if he chooses 1...e5, dealing with the Scotch, Italian Game, Berlin Defense, Exchange Ruy Lopez or Classical Ruy Lopez, Two Knights Defense, and so on. But what if White chooses 1 d4? Ok sure you can play a fianchetto instead of a Queen's Gambit or Slav, but you also have to deal with 1 c4 or 1 Nf3 too.

White, meanwhile, can just play 1 d4 and never have to deal with a Sicilian, for example. He just has to have solid lines against the Slav, Grunfeld, Schara Gambit (an opening far more dangerous than you think), Benko Gambit (just as dangerous as the Schara), and so on.

One of the nice things however is White has ways to avoid the main line Benko Gambit, e.g. by either an early Nf3, or playing in the main lines, cxb5 followed by an instant e3 (which is the top recommended Stockfish move), and likewise, the Schara gambit is also avoided by playing Nf3 *before* Nc3.

So again, it's all about prep and knowledge, rather than the advantage of the first move. The advantage of the first move gives flexibility (since Black can't simply repeat all of white's moves).

theRonster456

Of course, this is the idea behind freestyle chess (or 960), which reduces white's advantage significantly, as recall of openings is of little use. Some have argued that black may actually have an advantage in freestyle, since after white's first move, black already has a clue about white's plan.

Falkentyne
theRonster456 wrote:

Of course, this is the idea behind freestyle chess (or 960), which reduces white's advantage significantly, as recall of openings is of little use. Some have argued that black may actually have an advantage in freestyle, since after white's first move, black already has a clue about white's plan.

This isn't conclusive.

There are a number of positions (specific numbers out of the 960) which are just dangerous for black, which require black to make an 'only' 1st move to avoid almost losing the game and where he has to grind for equality. I remember Hikaru mentioning them, one where black is almost forced to play 1...f5 on the first move, to block some bishops.

Psychic_Vigilante
ZapFalcon29 wrote:

I've always seen that at the start of the game, at many times black is unable to get a rather dynamic or combative position from the opening.

Any opening suggestions or sidelines which increase the spoce of the game from black? (other than the sicilian, cuz the theory and tabiyas are ridiculously huge) Currently I play the KID ,pirc and french so similar setups will be welcome

No, I`m afraid there are no such openings, other than the Sicilian defence, that offer equal space and dynamic potential against 1e4. I play the Taimanov Sicilian which is one of the less theory heavy variations of the Sicilian and don`t remember being bothered by the amount of theory.

Against 1d4 the Dutch defence is exactly what you are looking for. Theory however is more than in the Sicilian defence - there are something like 10 anti Dutch gambits and that is the beauty of it. I like studying this opening. Studying theory makes you better at chess, you don`t just memorise lines blindly but understand the reasons behind a vast multitude of certain moves. That makes you a better overall player. You want to win and not study - it is not going to happen.

As for the Dutch I play the following:

Stonewall Dutch vs - Catalan, Reti, Colle, White Stonewall, Bird

Leningrad vs Hopton Attack

Classical Dutch vs London System

Dutch-Nimzo Hybrid vs d4,c4,Nc3

fitmoversua
ZapFalcon29 wrote:

I've always seen that at the start of the game, at many times black is unable to get a rather dynamic or combative position from the opening.

Any opening suggestions or sidelines which increase the spoce of the game from black? (other than the sicilian, cuz the theory and tabiyas are ridiculously huge) Currently I play the KID ,pirc and french so similar setups will be welcome

If you’re looking for dynamic and combative openings as Black without heavy theory, consider the Modern Defense for flexibility. The Grünfeld Defense (if you like the KID) offers sharp counterplay in the center. The Czech Pirc or Philidor Defense can also lead to rich, strategic battles. Experiment with these to keep your games lively and unpredictable.

 

magipi
theRonster456 wrote:

Of course, this is the idea behind freestyle chess (or 960), which reduces white's advantage significantly, as recall of openings is of little use. Some have argued that black may actually have an advantage in freestyle, since after white's first move, black already has a clue about white's plan.

I think this is obviously not true. I would argue that the exact opposite is probably true: in some of the 960 positions white probably has a winning advantage from the start because the pieces are placed so that the one move advantage is decisive.

Honchkrowabcd
Falkentyne wrote:

Chess is always a draw when both sides play correctly.

One of the reasons for this is due to the drawing positions in pawn down endgames--a player who is defending can sacrifice a pawn to activate his rook to get behind an extra pawn and secure a draw, or get similar kinds of counterplay (like getting a rook to the 7th rank when a pawn down), and positions where you can draw a piece down. Likewise, the stalemate defenses possible as well. The defensive resources in chess are great.

The *only* real reason White has any advantage is purely a prep one-the player playing Black must be more prepared for multiple opening systems than White does, since, when White chooses his first move, this instantly takes out almost 1/3 of the openings that White needs to know theory on (excluding transpositions), while *Black* has to be prepared for *White* to play ANY opening and branching variations. For example, if white plays 1 e4, Black has to have multiple systems studied dealing with the Sicilian defense if he chooses 1...c5, or multiple lines studied if he chooses 1...e5, dealing with the Scotch, Italian Game, Berlin Defense, Exchange Ruy Lopez or Classical Ruy Lopez, Two Knights Defense, and so on. But what if White chooses 1 d4? Ok sure you can play a fianchetto instead of a Queen's Gambit or Slav, but you also have to deal with 1 c4 or 1 Nf3 too.

White, meanwhile, can just play 1 d4 and never have to deal with a Sicilian, for example. He just has to have solid lines against the Slav, Grunfeld, Schara Gambit (an opening far more dangerous than you think), Benko Gambit (just as dangerous as the Schara), and so on.

One of the nice things however is White has ways to avoid the main line Benko Gambit, e.g. by either an early Nf3, or playing in the main lines, cxb5 followed by an instant e3 (which is the top recommended Stockfish move), and likewise, the Schara gambit is also avoided by playing Nf3 *before* Nc3.

So again, it's all about prep and knowledge, rather than the advantage of the first move. The advantage of the first move gives flexibility (since Black can't simply repeat all of white's moves).

Yeah but white can make a slow or inaccurate move and remain equal, but when black does it they get into worse positions

Honchkrowabcd
magipi wrote:
theRonster456 wrote:

Of course, this is the idea behind freestyle chess (or 960), which reduces white's advantage significantly, as recall of openings is of little use. Some have argued that black may actually have an advantage in freestyle, since after white's first move, black already has a clue about white's plan.

I think this is obviously not true. I would argue that the exact opposite is probably true: in some of the 960 positions white probably has a winning advantage from the start because the pieces are placed so that the one move advantage is decisive.

Yup I remember Hans Niemann talking about this

Uhohspaghettio1
magipi wrote:
theRonster456 wrote:

Of course, this is the idea behind freestyle chess (or 960), which reduces white's advantage significantly, as recall of openings is of little use. Some have argued that black may actually have an advantage in freestyle, since after white's first move, black already has a clue about white's plan.

I think this is obviously not true. I would argue that the exact opposite is probably true: in some of the 960 positions white probably has a winning advantage from the start because the pieces are placed so that the one move advantage is decisive.

Obviouly it's not true.

And when he says "Some have argued that black may actually have an advantage in freestyle" he means teenage boys rated on reddit with about a 600 elo rating.

jcidus
ZapFalcon29 escribió:

I've always seen that at the start of the game, at many times black is unable to get a rather dynamic or combative position from the opening.

Any opening suggestions or sidelines which increase the spoce of the game from black? (other than the sicilian, cuz the theory and tabiyas are ridiculously huge) Currently I play the KID ,pirc and french so similar setups will be welcome

Yes, I'm going to give you several lines where Black takes the initiative in the game.

You need to play in a provocative and highly aggressive manner to gain this advantage

not an advantage according to the engine, because White will always have the upper hand.

Latvian Gambit

Elephant Gambit 
Englund Gambit (1. d4 e5)

Kings indian defense

Albin countergambit 
Dutch Defense (1 d4 f5)
Pelikan Variation (Sicilian Defense)

Lowental Variation (Sicilian Defense)
Herstrom Gambit (1. Nf3 g5)

Reversed Morra Gambit (1. c4 d5 2. cxd5 c6)

English Opening , kings english variation (reversed closed sicilian ) (see the picture)

hh

zaoooz1400
👍
Przypadkowo

When playing Black, I find the Caro-Kann often works for me, but I am not at the level of perfect play (I think my best ever rating in a game with 10 moves or over was 94%) and my opponents don't play perfectly either. I don't know for certain but I feel no disadvantage playing Black though in theory Black is at a slight disadvantage.

buzz960

I'm assuming you're talking about White's first-move advantage. While that advantage is relatively well-known, it is not much and Black can and often does break symmetry to enough of an extent that White's first-move advantage is just a triviality; however, the longer everything is symmetrical or almost symmetrical, the greater White's FMA is- which is among the reasons why dynamic, non e- or d-pawn openings such as the Sicilian or the Dutch remain popular despite being technically strategically inferior to the Open Game.

In other words, go for Bishop's pawn or Knight openings or mayyybe the Scandinavian if you want to grow your repertoire with the FMA in mind. The French Defense (perhaps starting with learning the mainline Normal, Exchange, and Advance Variations) should be a good opening too.

Falkentyne

I Iove how I got downvoted for mentioning something one of the best players in the world--Hikaru Nakamura, rated 2800+ for crying out loud, mentioned about Freestyle chess (during the last WC cycle, actually). Yet if hikaru himself came here and posted this, it would be upvoted 100 times.

Wolves...

Compadre_J

Yes, Black always has disadvantage at the start due to white having first move.