Does chess openings really matter if you will win or not?

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A-Primitive-Idiot
IMKeto wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

Play h4, a4, and rook h3. I would like to see how you do in the opening. I would also like to see that grandmaster play another grandmaster with those same moves see how often he wins. It WILL be a lot lower. I've never seen Magnus Carlsen or fishy or Hikaru or Nepo or Bobby Fischer start a game with those kind of moves if they truly 'Matter zero.'

I beat a 1900 with black playing 1...a6 2...h6 so yes it can be done.

I did NOT say it couldn't be done. Please read through my comments before arguing them. (although I wouldn't blame you if I made a really long comment)

Jenium
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
Jenium wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
Jenium wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
Jenium wrote:
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:

Stop it @Jenium - your argument is just a caricature of what people have said. NOBODY here has argued that openings were more important than tactics. That's just an annoying and dumb straw man argument. The only thing anyone has said is that knowing theory is better than not knowing theory, that studying it isn't a waste of time, and that it sometimes can give you an advantage. Seriously, just stop belittling people.

I am not belittling anyone.  Also, my argument wasn't that practicing tactics is more important than studying opening theory, my argument was that below master level basically everything (tactics, strategy, endgames, pawn structures, opening ideas etc...) is more useful than memorizing opening moves. But again, if you enjoy learning theory, by all means go ahead...

 

You forget if you have a bad opening your overall skill will be less of a factor. You will usually be at an inherent disadvantage. Also you are the last person I would talk to about straw man arguments considering you just misrepresented MY argument.

 

I don't forget, but I honestly have no clue what you are talking about. That being a GM will not help you if you play 1.f3 and 2. g4? Or what do you mean by a "bad opening"?

Unless you play a sharp or trappy line, which you shouldn't do anyway if you are not willing to study theory, your overall skill will most definitely help you even if you are start the game from a slightly worse position.   

My man made yet a 2nd straw man argument just after I pointed it out. Love of god bro I said it will be LESS of a factor. I never said that I could beat a grandmaster if he played a bad opening.

Maybe you can explain what you mean then? Why would your overall skill be less of a factor and what do you mean by a "bad opening"? Unless you fall for a trap and lose a piece or get mated it is exactly your overall skill that will help you out, after you misplayed the opening. Happens all the time.

What does 'less of a factor' mean to you? I don't see what's confusing about that. I didn't say it wasn't an extremely important factor. I said it was less of one.

I genuinely don't understand the argument. Why would skill be 'less of a factor' if you started with -0,3 from the opening as opposed to +0,3? Does this also mean that skill is less of a factor for Black because he/she is starting from a worse position?

 

Spielkalb
Stil1 wrote:

His answer was surprisingly controversial. A lot of players strongly agree with him. And just as many seem to strongly disagree ...

Thanks for sharing this video with us!

Actually, I didn't find it surprising the feedback on this video was such controversial. I think there's an underlying misunderstanding. To clear this up I suggest to make a distinction in the question:

a) Does learning opening theory matter?

b) Do openings matter?

Those are different questions and are confused all the time. All those GMs or whatever only read (a) into the question.

ad a) Clearly learning opening theory as in memorising deep lines doesn't make much sense.

ad b) Of course does the opening in itself matter because you set up your pieces there. It is an important phase in the game.  If that phase would be completely irrelevant, why bother with opening principles at all? 

 

A-Primitive-Idiot
Jenium wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
Jenium wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
Jenium wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
Jenium wrote:
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:

Stop it @Jenium - your argument is just a caricature of what people have said. NOBODY here has argued that openings were more important than tactics. That's just an annoying and dumb straw man argument. The only thing anyone has said is that knowing theory is better than not knowing theory, that studying it isn't a waste of time, and that it sometimes can give you an advantage. Seriously, just stop belittling people.

I am not belittling anyone.  Also, my argument wasn't that practicing tactics is more important than studying opening theory, my argument was that below master level basically everything (tactics, strategy, endgames, pawn structures, opening ideas etc...) is more useful than memorizing opening moves. But again, if you enjoy learning theory, by all means go ahead...

 

You forget if you have a bad opening your overall skill will be less of a factor. You will usually be at an inherent disadvantage. Also you are the last person I would talk to about straw man arguments considering you just misrepresented MY argument.

 

I don't forget, but I honestly have no clue what you are talking about. That being a GM will not help you if you play 1.f3 and 2. g4? Or what do you mean by a "bad opening"?

Unless you play a sharp or trappy line, which you shouldn't do anyway if you are not willing to study theory, your overall skill will most definitely help you even if you are start the game from a slightly worse position.   

My man made yet a 2nd straw man argument just after I pointed it out. Love of god bro I said it will be LESS of a factor. I never said that I could beat a grandmaster if he played a bad opening.

Maybe you can explain what you mean then? Why would your overall skill be less of a factor and what do you mean by a "bad opening"? Unless you fall for a trap and lose a piece or get mated it is exactly your overall skill that will help you out, after you misplayed the opening. Happens all the time.

What does 'less of a factor' mean to you? I don't see what's confusing about that. I didn't say it wasn't an extremely important factor. I said it was less of one.

I genuinely don't understand the argument. Why would skill be 'less of a factor' if you started with -0,3 from the opening as opposed to +0,3? Does this also mean that skill is less of a factor for Black because he/she is starting from a worse position?

 

As in it would matter, but less.

A-Primitive-Idiot

As in that was what I meant by what I said.

Spielkalb
IMKeto wrote:

Thats only going to be controversial to those that think openings matter.  But to be honest he is right.

He proved himself wrong because he made a 56min video about opening principles.

IMKeto
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

Was this in daily or bullet because you don't seem to do much on other types of games.

It was OTB

IMKeto
Spielkalb wrote:
IMKeto wrote:

Thats only going to be controversial to those that think openings matter.  But to be honest he is right.

He proved himself wrong becaause he made a 56min video about opening principles.

"Opening Principles"

IMKeto
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
IMKeto wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

Play h4, a4, and rook h3. I would like to see how you do in the opening. I would also like to see that grandmaster play another grandmaster with those same moves see how often he wins. It WILL be a lot lower. I've never seen Magnus Carlsen or fishy or Hikaru or Nepo or Bobby Fischer start a game with those kind of moves if they truly 'Matter zero.'

I beat a 1900 with black playing 1...a6 2...h6 so yes it can be done.

I did NOT say it couldn't be done. Please read through my comments before arguing them. (although I wouldn't blame you if I made a really long comment)

When and where was i arguing?

Spielkalb
IMKeto wrote:
Spielkalb wrote:
IMKeto wrote:

Thats only going to be controversial to those that think openings matter.  But to be honest he is right.

He proved himself wrong becaause he made a 56min video about opening principles.

"Opening Principles"

Please re-read my other post.

Jenium
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

I also notice that it took you a while to reach 2000. In 2014 you were around 1700, still far above average, obviously you worked but you were always above average talent-wise.

Why do you assume that? I've been playing chess for a long time, much longer than since 2014, and I wasn't 1700 when I touched the pieces for the first time.

 

IMKeto
Spielkalb wrote:
IMKeto wrote:
Spielkalb wrote:
IMKeto wrote:

Thats only going to be controversial to those that think openings matter.  But to be honest he is right.

He proved himself wrong becaause he made a 56min video about opening principles.

"Opening Principles"

Please re-read my other post.

He said openings at lower levels dont matter.  He is right. 

He made a 56 minute video on opening principles.

Two different subjects.

A-Primitive-Idiot

If you are in a bad position, skill is less of a factor, simply because it's more difficult to win either way. Obviously it's still a factor, Hikaru slapped around Mr.Beast with just a king and a queen. However, being down on material is still very big handicap. Hikaru would not beat a comparable player with just a queen and king, and it's more difficult to face someone comparable when down on material.

A-Primitive-Idiot
IMKeto wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

Was this in daily or bullet because you don't seem to do much on other types of games.

It was OTB

So bullet, rapid, or blitz?

A-Primitive-Idiot
Jenium wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

I also notice that it took you a while to reach 2000. In 2014 you were around 1700, still far above average, obviously you worked but you were always above average talent-wise.

Why do you assume that? I've been playing chess for a long time, much longer than since 2014, and I wasn't 1700 when I touched the pieces for the first time.

 

How long have you been playing Chess then? How long did it take to get to let's say, 1500.

IMKeto
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:
IMKeto wrote:
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

Was this in daily or bullet because you don't seem to do much on other types of games.

It was OTB

So bullet, rapid, or blitz?

OTB...classical 40/2, 30/1, G30

A-Primitive-Idiot

Ngl I haven't played many tournaments. 40/2 means 40 mins and you gain 2 secs per move right?

A-Primitive-Idiot

I want to do more tournaments but Covid ruined that for a while.

IMKeto
A-Primitive-Idiot wrote:

Ngl I haven't played many tournaments. 40/2 means 40 mins and you gain 2 secs per move right?

40 moves in 2 hours.

30 moves in 1 hour.

Game 30

Spielkalb
IMKeto wrote:
Spielkalb wrote:
IMKeto wrote:
Spielkalb wrote:
IMKeto wrote:

Thats only going to be controversial to those that think openings matter.  But to be honest he is right.

He proved himself wrong becaause he made a 56min video about opening principles.

"Opening Principles"

Please re-read my other post.

He said openings at lower levels dont matter.  He is right. 

He made a 56 minute video on opening principles.

Two different subjects.

How so?