Does chess openings really matter if you will win or not?

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nighteyes1234
Mandy82 wrote:

I am probably not worthy of talking, but I believe that you must know how the pieces move, then what checkmate and stalemate is, you should then learn why 

1. e4 is good and how it controls the center. You should learn the first few moves of the ruy Lopez or 4 knights. If someone does lets say, the 4 move checkmate on you, then learn how to defend it. Once you are more advanced, start learning an opening that interests you, but probably not something like all variations of the Sicilian

e4 is not good. e4 is unsupported. Per strategy.

You cant learn win in 4 moves per strategy...thats not the point.

You either learn strategy or you dont...there are almost all GMs dont know what it is...but it is well defined.

 

jmpchess12

Openings matter but not as much as people seem to think.

If you play openings well you get a nice position to launch your middlegame. A game of chess must still be played.

Some openings have traps that win on the spot and these tend to get youtube videos. All opening traps have a rating expiration beyond which they no longer work. Thus, traps are only a good idea if they're supported by solid play, that is if your opponent doesn't fall into the trap you're still in a good position. 

Another way in which the opening is critically important is setting the tone and direction of the middle game. Advanced Caro Kann and Open Sicilian are both respected openings, but they are completely different in character and plans. Players should chose openings where they understand the middlegame plans. 

Martin_Stahl
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:

@Martin_Stahl - there is a hole in your logic. Of course the main reason why beginner players lose is because they hang pieces... everyone knows this.

You are implying that learning a little opening theory and following opening principles are somehow mutually exclusive. You're also implying, incorrectly, that learning a little theory will somehow adversely affect your ability to not make errors. Learning a little bit of theory is not hard. Learning how to not hang pieces or succumb to simple tactics is a *long-term* process that takes much, much, much longer to master. Saying that there's a 1 to 1 tradeoff in time between learning simple openings and solving your larger problems is just plain incorrect.

As I've said before, knowing theory is better than not knowing theory. It's as simple as that.

 

What I'm saying is that you don't necessarily need to study openings, outside of eliminating blunders in the openings of games you play, which can be done without specifically studying theory.

 

Can learning theory help? Absolutely. But that isn't going to win many games, in and of itself, with most games being decided on errors later in the game, even moving into expert level. Somewhere between 1800-2000 it certainly starts becoming more important. 

 

I also didn't imply that learning openings is going to hurt your game, just that it may not help win games for players that are losing games due to missed tactics, poor positional play, or endgame errors.

wheepes

If you don't master the principles of the openings, the opening is worthless.

Spielkalb
Stil1 wrote:

I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing here. (Your comparison to Kepler's laws and Jupiter's moons went above my head.)

But opening "principles" and opening "theory" are rather specific, in terms of meaning.

An opening principle would be to develop your king knight toward the center of the board (to f3, for example), as it would control more squares, from f3, than it would from the h3 square.

Thus, placing the knight on f3 would be a principled developing move. Playing on principle. "A knight on the rim is dim," the player might think.

Theory would be line-specific. "We place the pawn on ...a6 here, in the Sicilian Najdorf, because of the following continuation: (insert variation here) ... notice, also, how it's useful for black to guard the b5 square, to support an eventual ...b5 pawn thrust, and to stop white's potential Nb5 ideas ..."

The a6 pawn move, therefore, is a theoretical move ... one that has been discovered from analysis, and understanding of future variations.

If black were, instead, to play a move like ...Nc6, because "I want to develop my knight toward the center, where it controls the most squares!", then they would be playing on principle, instead ...

Thanks, @Stil1! Your differentiation between opening "principles" and "theory"  makes sense to me in the way you've explained it. Especially with the example of the Najdorf.  From a scientific point of view I'm still unhappy with those naming, but at least now I understand what you're talking about.

NikkiLikeChikki

@ThatSavageLeo ... once again, what you're saying implies mutual exclusivity. Learning openings doesn't hinder your ability to grasp opening principles; in fact, it may serve to reinforce them. Practically every argument I've heard against beginners learning basic opening theory is that it will somehow compromise the rest of your game, and logically this makes no sense. Someone can teach you the basics of the Caro Kann in an hour, including what your plans should be upon exiting the opening. This isn't rocket science.

ADAM_PEATY

Yes they are really Important and our level i.e. 1400-1700, You must know atleast first ten moves of your opening to learn how to counterattack your opponent's responses, gambits, etc. 

ADAM_PEATY
CooloutAC wrote:

NOt according to many coaches.  For example I've heard Chesscoach.net and GM Finegold say on numerous occasions the opening does not matter and that your coaches just want your money.   lol.    Although all coaches will say you must at least know the opening principles.  Alot of coaches will  say not to learn openings until you are far advanced.    The experts say just learn opening and chess principles, then study the endgame,  then the middlegame and opening game last.

I just use the gucci piano dragon style of play and stick with that as a beginner.

To be honest, what he says is correct!! I try playing a opening with imbalances and unique moves for the players of my level which is risky sometimes for me but that gets my opponents out of there prep and they get confused.

Stil1
Spielkalb wrote:

Thanks, @Stil1! Your differentiation between opening "principles" and "theory"  makes sense to me in the way you've explained it. Especially with the example of the Najdorf.  From a scientific point of view I'm still unhappy with those naming, but at least now I understand what you're talking about.

Glad we could reach an agreement. thumbup.png

And yes, the terms do seem a bit slippery. And sometimes principles and theory overlap, which further muddies the water ...

Lobster62

Opening principles and theory matter insofar as they prevent a player from entering a middle game with either not enough material to reach the endgame, or having material that cannot reach effective positions.  To paraphrase: if you don't learn how to merge, you end up either parked at the top of the onramp, or spend most of your trip in the breakdown lane riding the rumble strip.

wheepes
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:

@ThatSavageLeo ... once again, what you're saying implies mutual exclusivity. Learning openings doesn't hinder your ability to grasp opening principles; in fact, it may serve to reinforce them. Practically every argument I've heard against beginners learning basic opening theory is that it will somehow compromise the rest of your game, and logically this makes no sense. Someone can teach you the basics of the Caro Kann in an hour, including what your plans should be upon exiting the opening. This isn't rocket science




I think that opening principles can also be used as offensive and not only defensive(back-up)

Spielkalb
ADAM_PEATY wrote:

Yes they are really Important and our level i.e. 1400-1700, You must know atleast first ten moves of your opening to learn how to counterattack your opponent's responses, gambits, etc. 

@CouldntFindAGoodUsername, don't take this statement for real. He's just trolling, I suppose.

NikkiLikeChikki

Opening theory and Opening principles are not the same thing. Opening theory is a specific set of moves and has a name. Opening principles are a set of guidelines which include: develop your pieces, don't make too many pawn moves, don't bring your queen out too early, castle early, don't move the same piece twice, control the center, and connect your rooks.

Many openings, and their theory violate opening principles. The Bong Cloud is considered an opening, but it violates practically every principle known to humans. The Wayward Queen Attack, preferred by 600-800 rated players and the Nelson bot also violates opening principles. Hypermodern openings, such as the Alekhine and the Nimzo-Larsen seem to violate opening principles, and yet are perfectly viable options unlike the two previously mentioned openings.

So they aren't the same thing.

wheepes

i know but i was trying to say that you can use the opening principles to your advantage

wheepes

-too

blightgmd

Learn 1-2 openings for each side (black and white) (your rating does not matter), and deeply learn the theory and the traps. My rating increased by alot once I learnt Kings Indian and Evans Gambit, Evans is easy to get into, you can play Italian and if your opponent plays Bc5 you can go into. Highly reccomend that if you play e4. And Kings Indian is great for black too, it gets them out of opening theory. At my current level I'm playing c4 for English which gets my oponents out of comfortable opening theory.

Jenium
Spielkalb wrote:

I think this question is so ambivalent answered because everyone has a different understanding what "opening theory" does exactly means.

Good point. When I hear "theory" I think about memorizing the first 20 moves of a line in the  Najdorf. Obviously that is not very useful below a certain level. If theory is - as some people here claim - learning the first 3-5 moves of the Italian + a few principles, beginners will benefit from that.

Stil1
AtaChess68 wrote:

That is not learning opening principles, it is low level theory I'd say. That starts from the moment a beginner runs into scholars mate for the second time. 

I agree that trying to learn from the opening moves that you find difficult is good practice, at any level. Learning is always good (as long as it's within reason, and within one's own comfort range).

To be fair, though, Scholar's Mate can't happen, if black is following opening principles

 

Opening principles followed:

- open with a pawn to the center

- knights before bishops

- if possible, develop with a threat

- develop your pieces to active, central squares

- place your bishops on strong diagonals

- get your king castled early

Opening principles automatically refute the Scholar's Mate.

This is why a lot of players say "you don't need theory at lower levels ... just opening principles", because opening principles can lead to playing sound opening moves.

NikkiLikeChikki

@stil1 - again, not mutually exclusive. you can do both, and learning the refutation wastes less in-game time and you automatically play the most precise refutation.

Additionally, as I stated earlier, if you just follow opening principles against some openings, you're just going to get killed. This is most famously applicable to the Stafford Gambit or the Wayward Queen attack. If you play natural moves, you're going to lose.

Why do you think that most beginners complain so much about the Nelson bot? There's a reason why you see so many posts hating on him, and that's because they are playing according to the principles that they have been taught and they are getting mated in 15 moves. Sometimes it's just better to know before the fact what to do.

Spielkalb
Stil1 wrote:

Opening principles followed:

- open with a pawn to the center

- knights before bishops

- if possible, develop with a threat

- develop your pieces to active, central squares

- place your bishops on strong diagonals

- get your king castled early

Opening principles automatically refute the Scholar's Mate.

This is why a lot of players say "you don't need theory at lower levels ... just opening principles", because opening principles can lead to playing sound opening moves.

You might add:

  • Don't move a pieces twice before all pieces are developed
  • Make as few pawn moves as possible

But all those guidelines only make sense if you understand the theory laying underneath.

For example, the idea behind rule "knights before bishops" is that the knights only have one or two good development fields. The bishops on the other hand have more desirable fields depending on what the opponent plays. So it's reasonable to hold back your bishops instead of committing them to early.  Following this principle by the letter wouldn't even allow you to play the Italian because you move your bishop before developing the second knight.

Following those principles blindfolded won't automatically give you the better play. You've got to know when to deviate from them. That's @NikkiLikeChikki's point as well, I suppose.