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does the Scandinavian actually work??

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Cornfed
Cornfed
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Jun 30, 2023
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#121

As I have already pointed out.

But I do so love to see 'monkeys examining a watch'. Not directed at anyone...It's just a saying. Chess is a game to be played...not an exercise in 'bean counting'.

Ilampozhil25
Ilampozhil25
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Jun 30, 2023
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#122
PotatoesAndChess wrote:
blueemu wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:

because black gives a bunch of free tempos to white which allows him to be way ahead in development

What "bunch of free tempos"? This is a very, very common misconception, and I think it should be straightened out.

Count the moves, but only for the pieces that remain on the board.

In the main-line Caro-Kann, BLACK (not White) is the one who loses a tempo early.

That happens because after 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 the Black d-Pawn has moved TWICE (d7-d5 and then d5xe4) and then disappeared from the board, captured... TAKING THOSE TWO TEMPI WITH IT. In return, White's e-Pawn only moved ONCE (e2-e4) before being taken, so when it was captured it only took ONE move with it, instead of two.

Black trades a d-Pawn and two moves for a White e-Pawn and one move... Black loses a move. Not White.

Conversely, in the Scandinavian it's exactly the other way around. White's e-Pawn moves TWICE (e2-e4 and then e4xd5) before being captured, while Black's d-Pawn only moved ONCE (d7-d5) before being captured.

WHITE, not Black, is the one who loses a tempo in the early opening of the Scandinavian. He trades his e-Pawn and two moves for Black's d-Pawn and one move.

I cannot understand where this "Black loses a tempo" claim comes from... it's precisely 180 degrees wrong... it is WHITE, not Black, who loses a move, because of the Pawn exchange.

Now... of course you will point out that White's Nc3 forces the Black Queen to move again, "losing a tempo"... but please COUNT!

In the Caro-Kann, Black goes DOWN a tempo on the Pawn exchange (trading a Black Pawn and two moves for a White Pawn and one move). In the Scandinavian, Black goes UP a tempo on the Pawn exchange (trading a Black Pawn and one move for a White Pawn and two moves).

That's a difference of TWO TEMPI... the difference between (-1) and (+1) is TWO POINTS, not one.

... so even when Black has to move his Queen away after White's Nc3 (losing back one of the two tempi that he gained) that STILL leaves him a move up over the Caro-Kann!

Black isn't losing time... he's GAINING time!

... but everybody (and I do mean EVERYBODY) talks as if the Scandinavian involves a LOSS of time. Precisely 180 degrees wrong!

When you complain about the d-pawn moving twice to capture, you somehow, someway just forgot that the Knight has to move a second time. You also failed to realize that black uses a tempi recapturing with the queen, so take a closer look.

In the Scandinavian

It is black to move and white is up 2 tempi. He has two bishops opened up and one piece developed, while all black has is one bishop open

Now look at the mainline caro-kann.

It is black to move, and white is up one tempi. They are equal in development, but white has opened both of his bishops.
 
Even if white plays the Nf3 line, the caro and scandi are equal in tempi.
Really, we should just avoid this issue altogether and just play the Sicilian.

thats the whole point

people say the scandi is tempo down to the caro

Ilampozhil25
Ilampozhil25
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Jun 30, 2023
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#123

maybe not 100% accurate, but the scandi isnt miles behind on this metric

AngryPuffer
AngryPuffer
Jun 30, 2023
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#124
blueemu wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:

because black gives a bunch of free tempos to white which allows him to be way ahead in development

What "bunch of free tempos"? This is a very, very common misconception, and I think it should be straightened out.

Count the moves, but only for the pieces that remain on the board.

In the main-line Caro-Kann, BLACK (not White) is the one who loses a tempo early.

That happens because after 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 the Black d-Pawn has moved TWICE (d7-d5 and then d5xe4) and then disappeared from the board, captured... TAKING THOSE TWO TEMPI WITH IT. In return, White's e-Pawn only moved ONCE (e2-e4) before being taken, so when it was captured it only took ONE move with it, instead of two.

Black trades a d-Pawn and two moves for a White e-Pawn and one move... Black loses a move. Not White.

Conversely, in the Scandinavian it's exactly the other way around. White's e-Pawn moves TWICE (e2-e4 and then e4xd5) before being captured, while Black's d-Pawn only moved ONCE (d7-d5) before being captured.

WHITE, not Black, is the one who loses a tempo in the early opening of the Scandinavian. He trades his e-Pawn and two moves for Black's d-Pawn and one move.

I cannot understand where this "Black loses a tempo" claim comes from... it's precisely 180 degrees wrong... it is WHITE, not Black, who loses a move, because of the Pawn exchange.

Now... of course you will point out that White's Nc3 forces the Black Queen to move again, "losing a tempo"... but please COUNT!

In the Caro-Kann, Black goes DOWN a tempo on the Pawn exchange (trading a Black Pawn and two moves for a White Pawn and one move). In the Scandinavian, Black goes UP a tempo on the Pawn exchange (trading a Black Pawn and one move for a White Pawn and two moves).

That's a difference of TWO TEMPI... the difference between (-1) and (+1) is TWO POINTS, not one.

... so even when Black has to move his Queen away after White's Nc3 (losing back one of the two tempi that he gained) that STILL leaves him a move up over the Caro-Kann!

Black isn't losing time... he's GAINING time!

... but everybody (and I do mean EVERYBODY) talks as if the Scandinavian involves a LOSS of time. Precisely 180 degrees wrong!

black is behind in development because he had to dance his queen around

AngryPuffer
AngryPuffer
Jun 30, 2023
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#125

white has more pieces out, better center, and has more attacking opportunities

blueemu
blueemu
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Jun 30, 2023
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#126

After 10. Qe2 Bg4 Black has already nearly equalized. White's advantage in that position is smaller than it was on move 1.

But why would Black play that line anyway? After 7. ... Nbd7 (instead of e6) White's Nd5 accomplishes exactly nothing. 7. ... Qc7 is also a decent alternative.

Cornfed
Cornfed
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Jun 30, 2023
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#127
AngryPuffer wrote:

white has more pieces out, better center, and has more attacking opportunities

and possiblythe reason you rarely see this specific line. In other lines, this does not have to happen. Also, many, if not most people play 9...gf6.

In any case, in THIS line, one could argue that Bd2 is....not exactly 'good development'...and will need to get moved again...and the Bc4 will need to be moved in order to play the natural c4 (similar to what I said earlier about an early Nc3). Again, not all development really counts as 'development' and such simplistic 'counting of tempi' is simply too simplistic for one to hang their hat on.

blueemu
blueemu
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Jun 30, 2023
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#128
Cornfed wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:

white has more pieces out, better center, and has more attacking opportunities

and possiblythe reason you rarely see this specific line. In other lines, this does not have to happen. Also, many, if not most people play 9...gf6.

In any case, in THIS line, one could argue that Bd2 is....not exactly 'good development'...and will need to get moved again...and the Bc4 will need to be moved in order to play the natural c4 (similar to what I said earlier about an early Nc3). Again, not all development really counts as 'development' and such simplistic 'counting of tempi' is simply too simplistic for one to hang their hat on.

I tend to use the term "cosmetic" development, to refer to moves that "look good" but make little actual difference to the course of play.

Refrigerator321
Refrigerator321
Jun 30, 2023
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#129
IronSteam1 wrote:
PotatoesAndChess wrote:

When you complain about the d-pawn moving twice to capture, you somehow, someway just forgot that the Knight has to move a second time. You also failed to realize that black uses a tempi recapturing with the queen, so take a closer look.

In the Scandinavian

It is black to move and white is up 2 tempi. He has two bishops opened up and one piece developed, while all black has is one bishop open

The tempo win is not as clear as it seems.

Black has coerced White into misplacing his knight on c3. The knight is blocking White's c-pawn, thus weakening White's control of the d5 square.

(Generally speaking, White "wants" his c-pawn on c4, next to his d4 pawn. He doesn't want his c-pawn blocked on c2 by his own piece.)

White will have to move his c3 knight again, later in the game, if he wants to activate his c-pawn. Otherwise, Black will secure a positional bind on the d5 square with his c6+e6 pawns.

Like many things in chess, it's not as clear-cut as it appears on first glance. For both players, there are things given, and things taken away ...

I didn't say the Knight on c3 is good, I just said it was a point in development. I didn't say that the caro-kann is better than the Scandinavian, I just refuted the claim that the Scandinavian provides faster development than the caro

MaetsNori
MaetsNori
Jun 30, 2023
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#130
PotatoesAndChess wrote:

I didn't say the Knight on c3 is good, I just said it was a point in development.

That's fine.

But, a "point" in development is (arguably) not really a point, if the piece is developed in a non-ideal manner.

Consider this:

White appears to have 3 pieces developed, compared to Black's 2.

Many players might conclude that this means White is ahead in development.

But is the bishop on d2 developed in an ideal manner? No.

White will have to move it again, at a later point, because currently that bishop is "not happy" on d2 - it is misplaced.

This is why one of the main lines continues in this way:

Now let's see the development of the pieces: 3 pieces for White, 3 pieces for Black.

The knight on c3 is similar, in many lines of the Scandinavian: it's like the bishop on d2 in the previous example. It's developed - but not in an ideal way.

In many cases, White will choose to move it again, somewhere else, later in the game - as if "admitting" that it was misplaced on c3 in the first place.

Chess has a lot of interesting lines like this - where players develop (and re-develop) their pieces in different ways.

Tempo-counting starts to lose its importance in many lines, and gets replaced, instead, by the maneuvering needs of the position.

There's even a line I sometimes play against the London where Black moves his knight from b8 to a6 then back to b8 then to c6 ...

gik-tally
gik-tally
Jun 30, 2023
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#131

I don't like the Qxd5 variations at all. I started out playing them, but they just invite white to chase black's queen and gain tempi. I play the Nf6 marshall because it's more aggressive, but positional lines like 2.e5 and 3.d4 drive me nuts, but I'm a gambiteer.

there's NOTHING wrong with the scandinavian.

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 scores 47:49 in 33 million games. how is +2% winning stats "suspect" again? I've seen it recommended by some GMs too.

trying to BEAT my fellow scandinavians with the blackmar diemer gambit (which they NEVER see, at least from a 1.e4 move order) is NOT EASY! it seems most scandinavian players are better positionally than I am.

it's a perfectly SOUND defense

AngryPuffer
AngryPuffer
Jun 30, 2023
0
#132

it allows white to kickstart an attack

AngryPuffer
AngryPuffer
Jun 30, 2023
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#133
Cornfed wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:

white has more pieces out, better center, and has more attacking opportunities

and possiblythe reason you rarely see this specific line. In other lines, this does not have to happen. Also, many, if not most people play 9...gf6.

In any case, in THIS line, one could argue that Bd2 is....not exactly 'good development'...and will need to get moved again...and the Bc4 will need to be moved in order to play the natural c4 (similar to what I said earlier about an early Nc3). Again, not all development really counts as 'development' and such simplistic 'counting of tempi' is simply too simplistic for one to hang their hat on.

no

white castles long in the main line and Bd2 is literally the most played/best move

gik-tally
gik-tally
Jun 30, 2023
0
#134

don't mind me... I'm just double posting & can't delete

WCPetrosian
WCPetrosian
Jun 30, 2023
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#135
Cornfed wrote:

The new Chessbase Magazine #214 has a supposed 'Bust' to the 'modern' Scandi mainline'. I subscribe, but haven't downloaded it yet - waiting to get a new computer before I download the last few.

I see the preview. It's a line I've already prepped, but at some point will check to see if their 'bust' holds up. I know no one have ever played it against me in blitz or otherwise.

The ...e6, instead of ...c6, line we discussed?

Cornfed
Cornfed
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Jun 30, 2023
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#136
AngryPuffer wrote:
Cornfed wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:

white has more pieces out, better center, and has more attacking opportunities

and possiblythe reason you rarely see this specific line. In other lines, this does not have to happen. Also, many, if not most people play 9...gf6.

In any case, in THIS line, one could argue that Bd2 is....not exactly 'good development'...and will need to get moved again...and the Bc4 will need to be moved in order to play the natural c4 (similar to what I said earlier about an early Nc3). Again, not all development really counts as 'development' and such simplistic 'counting of tempi' is simply too simplistic for one to hang their hat on.

no

white castles long in the main line and Bd2 is literally the most played/best move

We can agree to differ...but I play it regularly and say otherwise.

WCPetrosian
WCPetrosian
Jun 30, 2023
0
#137

Ah , I see now. After 1 e4 d5 2 exd5 Qxd5 3 Nc3 Qa5 4 d4 Nf6 5 Nf3 Bf5 6 Bd2 e6 a GM is saying 7 Ne5 busts the line for black. My book covers 7 Ne5, has black play 7...Qb6, that 7...c6 is too slow.

Refrigerator321
Refrigerator321
Jun 30, 2023
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#138

I saw this weird gambit get recommended, and (partially because the recommender was gothamchess) I am very skeptical. Scandi players, is this gambit good?

Cornfed
Cornfed
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Jun 30, 2023
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#139
PotatoesAndChess wrote:

I saw this weird gambit get recommended, and (partially because the recommender was gothamchess) I am very skeptical. Scandi players, is this gambit good?

Define 'good'.

Anything is playable. I've had a number of people play it against me...sometimes I win, sometimes I do not. 3 min games of course.

Cornfed
Cornfed
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Jun 30, 2023
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#140
UnsidesteppableChess wrote:

Ah , I see now. After 1 e4 d5 2 exd5 Qxd5 3 Nc3 Qa5 4 d4 Nf6 5 Nf3 Bf5 6 Bd2 e6 a GM is saying 7 Ne5 busts the line for black. My book covers 7 Ne5, has black play 7...Qb6, that 7...c6 is too slow.

Same here...7...Qb6. Maybe this weekend I'll download the magazine and look.