Regarding 'transpositions' after 1) Nf3 - that's supposed to be the reason 1) Nf3 isn't recommended?
Most openings contain transpositions. Including 1) e4 and 1) d4.
Transposition is something that beginners should be introduced to right away ...
else they invest in deep lines of whatever and find their opponents not allowing the lines or transposing into something else.
'deep' is narrow. 'wide' is objective.
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I have yet to see a good argument against 1) Nf3 here.
One will actually avoid more 'opponent's territory' with 1) Nf3 than with 1) e4 or 1) d4.
Suggestion: the chess 'hierarchy' tends to follow players at the top ... and for a long time so many grandmaster games and other master games began with e4 e5. Then e4 c5 as well. And d4 d5 and d4 Nf6.
In other words - it 'broadened out' a bit.
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1) Nf3 is very sound and very solid.
And it relates heavily to 1) d4. But not 1) e4. Which allows an e5 reply.
If the argument against 1) Nf3 is that one would have to know 'several openings' then that would be true - and very much moreso - with 1) d4 and 1) e4.
In other words - openings are labyrinthine anyway.
1) e4 and 1 d4 are supposed to be 'easy'?
Hardly.
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I say - encourage the student to play all three moves - but to skip 1) c4.
Again though - every student is different.
And some have much more time available for chess than others.
Some students make it a point to familiarize themselves with as many openings as they can.
Why not? Wide instead of deep. Discover some nomenclature among other things.
Efficiency instead of investment.
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To understand this better - consider when its your move in a slow tournament game.
Well into the game.
Do you just look at one line?
Much better: Be aware of all the material on the board. Be aware of all your opponent's main options and all of your's too.
See what's going on. Observation.
Then - start forming candidate moves.
Observation first then calculation.
Calculation - comparing carefully prepared sequences of moves in order to evaluate and then select a move.
Look at what's going on - before investing in narrow-deep calculations.
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Nobody here has dealt with this yet:
d4 d5 Nf3 is the beginning of 'the London system'. Its main line.
Now try Nf3 d5 d4.
News Flash: Its the same position!
Fact. Now what is the 'argument' that starting that off with 1) Nf3 is 'bad'?
What exactly are you 'avoiding' by playing 1) d4 first?
Let see if whoever has some facts about that.
I'll add one.
After 1) Nf3 - no Englund Gambit. No 'Freddy'.
(anticipated reply: 'Hey! white shouldn't fear the Englund anyway!')
But what did white 'avoid' by playing 1) d4 ?
E4, D4 or C4?
In response to @Playerafar comment #109
The issue is we are talking about Beginners.
Chess is very complex.
Trying to show all the complex elements to a Beginner doesn’t help them.
It often hurts them because it makes them feel overwhelmed.
It can also cause them to quit the game due to frustration.
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To help beginners, The goal is to try and make the complex game of chess simple.
You want to make it simple enough for them to learn and feel like they have chance to improve and become a stronger chess player.
Most Classical lines in chess come from 1.d4 or 1.e4 which is direct occupation of the center.
Almost all chess lines stem from those positions.
1. C4 - 1. F4 - 1. Nc3 - 1. Nf3 - 1. B3 - 1. G3
All the above moves don’t occupy the center.
They are Flank Pawns hitting a Key Center Square
or
They are Chess Pieces aiming to Pressure the Center Squares.
The issue is when White plays the above way they “MUST” counter attack with a strike in the center with a Center pawn E or D pawn.
For the above reason, the lines above often transpose.
When you go to study on how to play a 1.c4 line, you have to study moves your opponents will play vs. c4. In addition, you will have to study the lines which transpose into 1.e4 or 1.d4 lines. This means as a beginner you will have to study c4, e4, & potentially d4 lines which is overwhelming. It’s a large amount of positions which need to be learned.
1. e4 & 1. d4 lines don’t often transpose that much because they are center pawns.
They can transpose, but not at the rate or frequency of other lines.
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When a beginner goes to study 1.e4 or 1.d4 lines that is all they really need to study.
The other lines are really not in the picture which is what makes playing those lines for beginners a lot easier and more appealing. It is less stuff to study. It is less stuff to know which is very helpful because it makes chess more tolerable.
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The only move which I have seen a GM or IM recommend for beginners which wasn't 1.e4 or 1.d4 came with the move 1.Nf3.
You had to play the line a very special kind of way so that it limited the amount of transpositions. The line was King’s Indian Attack (KIA) which is a systems type of line.
System lines are very appealing for beginners.
The Benefit of System lines is you can play it no matter what your opponent plays.
This helps reduce the pressure on a Beginner because they don’t have to stress about every single move their opponent does. They can feel more relaxed and try to play from a set up which makes them comfortable.
Obviously, These System Lines carry very harsh Con’s as well. It’s not all Sunshines and Rainbows. Their are negative aspects of System Openings which even high players also are very vocal about. System lines can cause players to become Autopilot.
(Term used to describe a player not paying attention to opponents moves)
Yeah, it is a heated topic for sure.
playerafar is a troll and let's say, very weird. Don't you recognise that?
You sound as though you could be the same person.
Very much like each other.
That's a fact.
the Guy always breaks down quite quickly and starts namecallilng in a childish manner.
In other words - he projects his own trolling.
And for ten years now.
He will go nuts in any forum where he doesn't get his way and there's been a 'supply' of those.
Then he will start imagining a 'Cabal' against him.
We'll also see his obsessions with credentials and ratings and IQ scores and he will obsess over nationality too.
I'll answer Compadre now - in other words I'll post around 'the Guy'.
@ Compadre
I'm reading over your post and addressing salient points there
"Trying to show all the complex elements to a Beginner doesn’t help them."
Which in my opinion is why the Najdorf variation is not a good choice to show beginners.
"Obviously, These System Lines carry very harsh Con’s as well. It’s not all Sunshines and Rainbows. Their are negative aspects of System Openings which even high players also are very vocal about. System lines can cause players to become Autopilot."
Which I also mentioned in one of the three recently active forums about openings.
When players are shown openings - their opponents can and do simply play other openings. Or transpose out of the variations they've been shown.
That's one of the reasons that some beginners and novices are often attracted to openings like the London and the King's Indian and the Colle.
But leaving the bishop behind at c1 (or c8) is also 'complex' and beginners can find themselves essentially playing a rook and bishop down as the opening proceeds into the middlegame.
At least with the London - those players will begin to discover the issues of development.
Concerning the King's Indian - I don't regard that as one of the 'easier' openings.
Its actually quite ponderous.
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And the London doesn't seem to be one of 'the more difficult' openings.
And so far - nobody has produced a good argument yet as to why 1) Nf3 is 'more complex'.
Both Bf4 in the London and 1) Nf3 appear to be quite simple in their intent.
And Bf5 in the Caro.
In both the main line of the Caro and in its advance variation with e5..
Is the coach supposed to hide the fact that there's a lot of paradox in chess?
That's part of the game. Paradox. To enter into problems.
Plus openings are not 'solved'.
But basic endings and basic checkmates and basic tactics are all 'solved' - which means that students can realize them as becoming their property and equipment to enter into battle in the openings with.
And 1) e4 and 1) d4 don't lead to 'simplicity'.
Yes I agree they are 'classical'.
That's my initial reply to your post but I have to read your post some more.
Like most or all of your posts - its a good post!
I'll probably be re-reading it and responding to that post for a while.
@ Compadre
"1. e4 & 1. d4 lines don’t often transpose that much because they are center pawns.
They can transpose, but not at the rate or frequency of other lines."
But they are 'heavy' in their own way. Plenty heavy.
I agree with you about c4.
I don't see it that way with 1) Nf3. Which is much less 'particular' than 1) c4.
That knight is going there anyway.
No?
If we're talking about exactly how openings should be presented to beginners/novices - there's no such thing.
Because players vary and so do coaches.
Coaches are usually very advanced players. Often master strength or near it.
So they might be inclined to present the material that they're invested so much in.
Including in Sicilian main lines and the labyrinthine lines of the Breyer and Zaitsev and Chigorin lines of the Ruy Lopez.
And even showing their own games that involve those lines.
There are pros and cons of that.
In extreme cases we'll see some wanting openings classified by others according to how they play them and see them.
My suggestions revolve around objective facts.
White has twenty opening options.
Seven of them look best. Another seven look worst. Six look intermediate.
Is that 'complex'? 20 is a nice neat accurate number.
It cannot Lie.
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Many coaches - rightly - adapt to their students' inclinations or situations.
Lev Alburt used to do that.
'find out what the student needs and then give him what he needs'
Botvinnik was a great coach. We could look up his coaching methods.
If I recall correctly - he suggested that memorizing opening moves is one of the worst things a chess student can do.
Did Botvinnik only teach prodigies and other advanced students?
I don't know. Would have to check.
@Playerafar comments #113 & #114
You are correct!
I have not fully explained why 1.Nf3 is complex.
The main reason why I haven’t explained the complexity of 1.Nf3 is because it is unrelated to the thread topic. I have only mentioned it in passing because I don’t want to “derail” the thread in a discussion which the OP has no interest in.
The creator of the thread seems only interested in discussing C4, D4, & E4.
It seems he has no interest in other 1st moves which is why their is no real reason to discuss them. Obviously, Their are several 1st moves White can play.
The OP has decided to limit the options down to 3.
I am sure other players of the forum probably feel the same way.
They don’t want to cause train wreck in this wonderful thread with a random discussion especially when these 3 opening moves have a lot of discussion with in them.
Several people have already shown some of the complex of 1.C4 which is with in the topic of the thread. You can just see the different transposition lines.
I, myself, have played the Hedgehog against the Maroczy Bind.
Which of these is best for players in the 1200 to 1300 rating range?
Compadre Yes - technically the opening poster only mentioned the three most common pawn openings in his opening post.
I've mentioned 1) Nf3 because its so underrated and because of its advantages over the other three moves.
There seems to be progress in the sense that most players seem to agree that c4 is less appropriate for players in the rating range of the opening poster.
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But there's another idea.
If the player with white 'avoids' various opening moves ...
he's still going to have those moves played against him on move 1 - when he's playing black !!
Which suggests in turn - improve on insights into those first moves by white - when playing black. How could you so improve without thereby gaining some insight on how to play them with white?
You wouldn't.
This is related to a much more general thing.
In any position - any move which is important for your opponent - a move he values or should value or wants to play if he gets a good opportunity - is important for you too.
Your opponent's issues with the position are your issues too.
Compadre have you encountered or experienced that idea?
Develop understanding from the black side first ...
White has 20 first move options. That number Cannot Lie.
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Compadre I just tried something on this online database.
https://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=2&n=1&ms=Nf3&ns=1#search_block_opening_explorerI used the back arrow button there to go back to the initial Grand position and compared the statistical results of e4 and d4 and Nf3 on first move.
Nf3 does very very well!
Unfortunately that website does not give an overall stat for each move.
It gives stats on each move according to black's reply.
Here's a discussion comparing 1) Nf3 with the other three white first moves.
https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/27986/why-is-1-nf3-not-nearly-as-popular-as-1-e4-and-1-d4Note that 1) Nf3 is not headed for e4 e5 lines unless white allows it.
Black might try Nc6 in response but after 2) d4 black's e-pawn ain't headin' for e5.
Will Nf3 'transpose' into c4 lines?
Only if white plays c4 early and voluntarily does that.
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Apparently after 1) Nf3 the reply f5 does poorly against Nf3.
Suggestion - 1) Nf3 is mostly heading for various d4 lines. While preventing so much of black's 'book' against d4..
Black could respond to Nf3 with c5 though.
Is white then 'bamboozled' into 2) e4 in that case?
I'm suggesting 'nyet'.
I'd be tempted to prepare d4 with c3 or e3 there - so as to stymie any Sicilian intentions black has. If black takes with cxd4 white will recapture with a pawn.
My personal experience with 1) Nf3 is that black almost always responds with either d5 or Nf6.
Regarding the fact that black has a c5 option ...
c5 can be played against anything white does ... except b4.
c5 is not magical. It does not have 'refuting power'.
It does not refute 1) f4 nor 1) Nf3 nor 1) e4 nor 1) c4 nor even 1) d4 (although against 1) d4 it appears its better that black plays Nf6 first and then after c4 only then c5 because otherwise white gets the c4 square for his pieces. Hence the terms 'old Benoni' and 'modern Benoni'.
Another way to put it - an opening does not go 'out of business' because black has a c5 option. c5 refutes nothing.
Regarding those persons who think they should prevail in discussion because of 'credentials' there are very few persons who make that mistake.
Very few.
And even fewer who think that something is refuted or inferior because 'he' plays it.
Such is not an argument and never will be and can be posted around.
Regarding the fact that avoiding various openings with white will not prevent them being played against one when playing black ...
that not addressed at all yet.
Suggestion: the good coach will make that clear to his student early on.
Regarding this idea: If the argument against telling students early on about what transposition is - is that they don't have any openings yet to refer to in the first place and to compare ...
that's an invalid argument.
For one thing that depends on the strength or experience of the student.
Plus - if the student is such a beginner that he/she doesn't even know there are different openings and with names - then its the immediate duty of the coach to make it clear and make the student aware of that. But a huge percentage of students would already know that including on their own.
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Since students know there are different openings - then the idea of informing the student that one opening can transpose into another and that transposition is the term - is not like instructing the student about Einstein's second theory of relativity.
All of that is obvious.
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So how did 1) Nf3 get a bad rap?
Probably because of the way openings evolved.
So many games began with e4 e5.
There was then a 'top-down' influence on a hierarchy of players.
In older times - very few people had the luxury and privilege of playing chess.
It was a game for nobles and kings and scribes and scholars and wealthy people.
There's some controversy about exactly when 'classical chess' stopped being dominant.
As versus 'modern chess' and 'hypermodern chess'.
Chess is evolving. Slowly.
The double pawn move dates back to 1200.
By the early 1800s countries were still not in agreement about en passant rules.
600 years later in other words.
You'll see disagreement as to 'who' brought in 'modern and hypermodern' openings.
Different styles of play co-exist today.
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Anyway - this discussion about how to play white might be well served by how to play black.
If you play 1) d4 followed by c4 you might get the Nimzo-Indian played against you.
Should we throw out playing against the Nimzo because its 'too difficult'?
Will coaches instructing students about how to play black throw out the Nimzo as 'too difficult'?
I wouldn't start with the Nimzo for black.
Plus white can avoid the Nimzo with Nf3 instead of Nc3 on move 3.
I'd start with the Slav. For one thing - its almost impossible for white to prevent black playing d5 if black opens c6. Regardless of white's first move.
The only way he can prevent it is by d4 c6 d5?? Which is not good for white. Obviously. Black rips that pawn!
Its similiar with e6 and d5. But e6 blocks black's c-bishop. In both the QGD and the French.
These are issues for black.
But that means - they're issues for white too.
Simple.
Which of these is best for players in the 1200 to 1300 rating range?
I would recommend d4 over e4.
And instead of c4 - consider Nf3.
And - I recommend to the opening poster - to further consider your choices with white - think about how you'd play against each of them with black.
Because your options with black are what you're going to be facing with white.
Another way to look at it - the opening doesn't have much definition until both players have made at least one move.
Which of these is best for players in the 1200 to 1300 rating range?
I would recommend d4 over e4.
And instead of c4 - consider Nf3.
And - I recommend to the opening poster - to further consider your choices with white - think about how you'd play against each of them with black.
Because your options with black are what you're going to be facing with white.
Another way to look at it - the opening doesn't have much definition until both players have made at least one move.
I do not play 1)Nf3,... but I do play 1)b4,...
When I face 1)Nf3,... I generally respond 1)...,Nf6. Because it immediately stops white from playing 2)e4,... No initial king pawn games.
Then I wait for white to commit a pawn move and follow the transposition.
the advantages of playing 1)Nf3,... is :
A) it is extremely transpositional
B) because of that white can move order black into inferior positions, possibly in a defense that black did not even want to play.
A strong player will play 1)Nf3,... to truly test your opening knowledge.
I say this all the time but getting an MCO or equivalent and actually playing through all the openings with board and pieces will do two things
1) give a general overview of the ideas and flow of every opening.
2) make you aware of the importance of transposition between openings. Each opening produces an identifying finger print in the middle game. Or pieces of positions that will help you formulate a plan when the position is not clear or normally identified.
1) b4,... is a completely different animal.
Which of these is best for players in the 1200 to 1300 rating range?
I would recommend d4 over e4.
And instead of c4 - consider Nf3.
And - I recommend to the opening poster - to further consider your choices with white - think about how you'd play against each of them with black.
Because your options with black are what you're going to be facing with white.
Another way to look at it - the opening doesn't have much definition until both players have made at least one move.
I do not play 1)Nf3,... but I do play 1)b4,...
When I face 1)Nf3,... I generally respond 1)...,Nf6. Because it immediately stops white from playing 2)e4,... No initial king pawn games.
Then I wait for white to commit a pawn move and follow the transposition.
the advantages of playing 1)Nf3,... is :
A) it is extremely transpositional
B) because of that white can move order black into inferior positions, possibly in a defense that black did not even want to play.
A strong player will play 1)Nf3,... to truly test your opening knowledge.
I say this all the time but getting an MCO or equivalent and actually playing through all the openings with board and pieces will do two things
1) give a general overview of the ideas and flow of every opening.
2) make you aware of the importance of transposition between openings. Each opening produces an identifying finger print in the middle game. Or pieces of positions that will help you formulate a plan when the position is not clear or normally identified.
1) b4,... is a completely different animal.
1) b4 I see as a very playable move.
One of the six intermediate moves.
Should one give it no attention?
Well one is going to have to face it when playing black.
Not often - but it will come up.
Point: When choosing between the top few move options with white for move 1 - that doesn't mean one is 'getting out of' having to deal with the others.
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For very rank beginners who have just discovered what checkmate is but don't know what en passant is - how should the coach go at the early lessons?
Its a trick question. There's no rules. Depends on too many things.
I'm thinking though that most coaches will start beginners off with playing white and 'white openings'. Not black. Something to do with the coach-student chemistry.
And starting with white will be seen as 'easier'. White gets to 'determine'.
In these days of the internet though - coaching has probably changed considerably and continuing to change.
Please explain " one of the six intermediate moves"
Please explain " one of the six intermediate moves"
I would describe - rather than 'explain'. Openings are not 'solved'.
Going by internet databases - experience and other factors ...
various moves of white's 20 move options on move 1 appear to be better than others.
Do you agree?
Some are better.
Premising that - then which?
Which are better - of the 20 and which appear to be the worst of the 20?
Notice I only said 'appear' there.
Perhaps people will 'lawyer up' for the worst seven of the 20.
But there's moves in between too.
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Now I have to be careful here - because the opening poster specifies e4 or d4 or c4.
So I'll just say for now that there appear to be seven better moves and seven moves 'look bad' and six are 'in the middle'.
The three moves named in the forum topic are all in the top group of seven.
But how people rank the top moves might vary tremendously.
I say - most experienced enough players would put e4 and d4 and c4 and Nf3 all in the top group - whether they have seven in the group or just those four or whatever.
And there would be different definitions of what 'better' is.
The English opening induces interesting and off-kilter middlegame play at early elos. It's mostly useful as a transpositional opening if you're a strategic and positional player, but you need to understand several openings to use it this way. I've transposed from 1.c4 into QGD, QGA lines, the Steiner french, the accelerated panov, the alapin sicilian, and several others.
If you want to be good at the English, you need to brush up on 1.e4 and 1.d4 anyways. May as well start with those if you're a beginner. The English is a great opening for intermediate-advanced level players.
Hi !
Interesting you could get an Alapin from 1) c4 ... I'm not 'claiming' anything.
Just remarking.
There seems to be some agreement here - some - that beginners should skip 1) c4 to start off. That 1) d4 and 1) e4 should be the priorities.
I kind of agree with this - 1) c4 is not exactly beginner-friendly.
It would be like studying 1) b3 or 1) f4 and various white 'reversed openings' with an extra move ...
For some reason 1) Nf3 is excluded too ...
But what exactly is the line that makes 1) Nf3 beginner-unfriendly?
If the game was going to begin 1) Nf3 d5 c4 ... then 1) Nf3 doesn't look like a good recommendation to beginner/novices ... the Reti opening ... no - not 'user friendly'.
but Point: after 1) Nf3 d5 ... white absolutely Does Not have to play c4 ...
Does Not.
He can even just go 2) d4 and we're back in the primary London move order anyway.
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After 1) Nf3 ... black can play c5. But so what? Black can do that against 1) e4 too - or even against 1) d4.
What is the Big Knock on 1) Nf3 ...??
Can black be 'unpleasant'?
Try 1) Nf3 d5 d4 and now Bg4. A kind of black 'Trompowsky' ...
Then it could be Cat and Mouse again.
White could try Ne5 - hitting black's Bish at g4 ... and now what?
Is it bad for white?
But black can do that Bg4 in the main London move order too ...
1. Nf3 is about the worst imaginable opening for a beginner. You have to learn to develop rather than transpositions and positional manoeuvring that the beginner will know nothing about.
Not an answer.
Ignores the facts about 1) Nf3 and about 1) d4 and 1) e4 too.
Which also contain 'transpositions and maneuvering' the beginner 'knows nothing about'.
Plus - beginners learn.
Is the point.
'know nothing about' is what is being addressed and countered.
Why should 'transposition' be a taboo word in chess coaching?
I'll make another post about this.
In a minute. With more facts.
For those (I think there's only one person who so acts) that regard chess facts as 'spam' - there's no obligation to read.