There are no sound gambits for Black in the Exchange Slav. You need to study and understand how to execute symmetrical pawn structures. They tend to be a slow grind and often lead to minor piece Endings. The Berlin and Exchange French fall in the same category!
Experts on exchange slav guide me out here please !
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ThrillerFan wrote:
There are no sound gambits for Black in the Exchange Slav. You need to study and understand how to execute symmetrical pawn structures. They tend to be a slow grind and often lead to minor piece Endings. The Berlin and Exchange French fall in the same category!
Did you watch the video?
Aug 15, 2021
0
#4
ESP-918 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
There are no sound gambits for Black in the Exchange Slav. You need to study and understand how to execute symmetrical pawn structures. They tend to be a slow grind and often lead to minor piece Endings. The Berlin and Exchange French fall in the same category!
Did you watch the video?
Apples to oranges! The video isn't even an Exchange Slav. Just because d4 is played way later on does not make it a Slav. The move d4 was played after Black has committed to certain moves. This was a Reti. In the Exchange Slav, White does not Fianchetto his Bishop. That's basically the main difference between the Exchange Slav and this line of the Reti.
Here is the Exchange Slav
None of the legitimate lines here for Black are gambits.
Also, if you do Nf6 first, not a whole lot changes. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.Nf3 (or 5.Bf4 first) Nc6 and then whichever move White did not play on move 5.
ThrillerFan wrote:
ESP-918 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
There are no sound gambits for Black in the Exchange Slav. You need to study and understand how to execute symmetrical pawn structures. They tend to be a slow grind and often lead to minor piece Endings. The Berlin and Exchange French fall in the same category!
Did you watch the video?
Apples to oranges! The video isn't even an Exchange Slav. Just because d4 is played way later on does not make it a Slav. The move d4 was played after Black has committed to certain moves. This was a Reti. In the Exchange Slav, White does not Fianchetto his Bishop. That's basically the main difference between the Exchange Slav and this line of the Reti.
Here is the Exchange Slav
None of the legitimate lines here for Black are gambits.
Also, if you do Nf6 first, not a whole lot changes. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.Nf3 (or 5.Bf4 first) Nc6 and then whichever move White did not play on move 5.
OK I do agree, that position in a video more like Reti because of fianchetto bishop, but still similar structures, not the same of course, can't I gambit same as the video same pawn for example or ... I'm just confused here
If not what structure do you recommend after my move orders , would you recommend me leave c8 bishop closed inside a pawn chain , which I think is more solid or take it outo and different plan, which is best against stronger players like strong CM or an FM otb blitz play or occasionally rapid games.
When I'm talking about closing bishop on c8 I'm talking about idea's that John Bartholomew plays here an example:
0.23 time code
Should I just copy his reporter or something else?
I need something I can play every game and know it well and preferably something that I force, so my opponent can't deviate from particular line, what do you recommend?
Aug 15, 2021
0
#6
You cannot force the same position. Just impossible. 6...e6 is fine if you want to keep the LSB behind the pawn chain. Gambits don't work here because White is way too solid when he plays 7.e3 and develops the Bishop classically rather than fianchettoing it.
Even with White, successfully playing the same position is impossible! There is even a case where the London is bad:
Trying to force the same position is a total failure for 2 reasons:
1) The lack of diverse positions will make you complacent and you will play moves without even thinking about the position and your opponent will play something slightly offbeat and your move goes from best to blunder.
2) The simply don't work in some cases. Here is another common one, where people close their eyes and play c4, g3, Bg2, Nc3 that utterly fails.
So again, trying to cookie cut your game to the same opening moves, or always gambitting, or always forcing tactics, or always closed, or always positional, will get you killed.
You try to force one style in every game and you will suck for ever!
Many openings lead to FREQUENT open play or FREQUENT Closed play, but nothing is absolute. I have played almost every main stream opening known to man. I have had Wild Slavs, Positional Najdorfs, Wild Petroffs, and Positional Benonis. All of those are contrary to the stereotype of each of those openings!
I play the French against 1.e4 not to force any position. I understand the Blocked Center that arises from the Advance, the IQP center that comes from the Tarrasch, the symmetrical center that comes from the Exchange, and the dynamic (sometimes open) center that comes from Anti-Winawer lines (no 4.e5 by White).
You have to learn and adapt with your opening of choice, which clearly against 1.d4 is the Slav, and you will have to deal with the somewhat dull Exchange Slav like I do the Exchange French. Many French player loathe the Exchange. I say bring it on! Thank you for giving me such an easy game! In over the board play, I have not lost a game as Black in the Exchange French with a time control of G/60 or longer since 2013, and I have faced the exchange probably about 30 to 40 times since then. My only loss came in severe time trouble in a Game in 33 minutes 40 seconds tournament (New Years Day 2020, 33 minutes 40 seconds is 2020 seconds) where before the time scramble, Black was winning! So from an opening standpoint, not one failure since 2013. So while other whine about the exchange, I foam at the mouth when I see the exchange like I just found the hottest woman in the world wearing nothing!
You need to simply learn exchange Slav theory, realize how easy it is to equalize, and maybe one day you will be like me (in my case Exchange French) where in 40 games of exchange Slav over the board, you'll have 1 loss in a very short time control, and otherwise split the wins and draws about evenly. I would have to dig up all the games to get the exact numbers, but it is roughly 20 wins and 20 draws to go with that 1 loss. That is over 70 percent! 70 percent with either color is phenomenal, and in this case, we are talking Black!
ThrillerFan wrote:
You cannot force the same position. Just impossible. 6...e6 is fine if you want to keep the LSB behind the pawn chain. Gambits don't work here because White is way too solid when he plays 7.e3 and develops the Bishop classically rather than fianchettoing it.
Even with White, successfully playing the same position is impossible! There is even a case where the London is bad:
Trying to force the same position is a total failure for 2 reasons:
1) The lack of diverse positions will make you complacent and you will play moves without even thinking about the position and your opponent will play something slightly offbeat and your move goes from best to blunder.
2) The simply don't work in some cases. Here is another common one, where people close their eyes and play c4, g3, Bg2, Nc3 that utterly fails.
So again, trying to cookie cut your game to the same opening moves, or always gambitting, or always forcing tactics, or always closed, or always positional, will get you killed.
You try to force one style in every game and you will suck for ever!
Many openings lead to FREQUENT open play or FREQUENT Closed play, but nothing is absolute. I have played almost every main stream opening known to man. I have had Wild Slavs, Positional Najdorfs, Wild Petroffs, and Positional Benonis. All of those are contrary to the stereotype of each of those openings!
I play the French against 1.e4 not to force any position. I understand the Blocked Center that arises from the Advance, the IQP center that comes from the Tarrasch, the symmetrical center that comes from the Exchange, and the dynamic (sometimes open) center that comes from Anti-Winawer lines (no 4.e5 by White).
You have to learn and adapt with your opening of choice, which clearly against 1.d4 is the Slav, and you will have to deal with the somewhat dull Exchange Slav like I do the Exchange French. Many French player loathe the Exchange. I say bring it on! Thank you for giving me such an easy game! In over the board play, I have not lost a game as Black in the Exchange French with a time control of G/60 or longer since 2013, and I have faced the exchange probably about 30 to 40 times since then. My only loss came in severe time trouble in a Game in 33 minutes 40 seconds tournament (New Years Day 2020, 33 minutes 40 seconds is 2020 seconds) where before the time scramble, Black was winning! So from an opening standpoint, not one failure since 2013. So while other whine about the exchange, I foam at the mouth when I see the exchange like I just found the hottest woman in the world wearing nothing!
You need to simply learn exchange Slav theory, realize how easy it is to equalize, and maybe one day you will be like me (in my case Exchange French) where in 40 games of exchange Slav over the board, you'll have 1 loss in a very short time control, and otherwise split the wins and draws about evenly. I would have to dig up all the games to get the exact numbers, but it is roughly 20 wins and 20 draws to go with that 1 loss. That is over 70 percent! 70 percent with either color is phenomenal, and in this case, we are talking Black!
Can you be more specific what do you recommend please
Can you show me
Like John Bartholomew recommends locking the bishop and playing with fire on a king side as a video,so his move is e6 etc...
Other member recommended me after my moves to play Qb6 and go that way
What do you recommend exactly? What exact moves?
Post #4 exchange Slav diagram 5th move white moves Nc3 what do you recommend next?
Aug 15, 2021
0
#9
1e4_0-1 wrote:
White just plays 7. qb3 and black still has no fun. If 7. nxd4 seemingly capturing a free pawn then 8. nxd4 qxd4 9. e3 qb6/qc5 and 10. nb5 is just winning for white
I can confidently say that there aren't any real gambit lines in such a symmetrical position as the exchange slav, nor should there be in a position where there's literally no weaknesses on either side to take advantage of
Like just look at these draw rates
Aug 16, 2021
0
#10
ESP-918 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
You cannot force the same position. Just impossible. 6...e6 is fine if you want to keep the LSB behind the pawn chain. Gambits don't work here because White is way too solid when he plays 7.e3 and develops the Bishop classically rather than fianchettoing it.
Even with White, successfully playing the same position is impossible! There is even a case where the London is bad:
Trying to force the same position is a total failure for 2 reasons:
1) The lack of diverse positions will make you complacent and you will play moves without even thinking about the position and your opponent will play something slightly offbeat and your move goes from best to blunder.
2) The simply don't work in some cases. Here is another common one, where people close their eyes and play c4, g3, Bg2, Nc3 that utterly fails.
So again, trying to cookie cut your game to the same opening moves, or always gambitting, or always forcing tactics, or always closed, or always positional, will get you killed.
You try to force one style in every game and you will suck for ever!
Many openings lead to FREQUENT open play or FREQUENT Closed play, but nothing is absolute. I have played almost every main stream opening known to man. I have had Wild Slavs, Positional Najdorfs, Wild Petroffs, and Positional Benonis. All of those are contrary to the stereotype of each of those openings!
I play the French against 1.e4 not to force any position. I understand the Blocked Center that arises from the Advance, the IQP center that comes from the Tarrasch, the symmetrical center that comes from the Exchange, and the dynamic (sometimes open) center that comes from Anti-Winawer lines (no 4.e5 by White).
You have to learn and adapt with your opening of choice, which clearly against 1.d4 is the Slav, and you will have to deal with the somewhat dull Exchange Slav like I do the Exchange French. Many French player loathe the Exchange. I say bring it on! Thank you for giving me such an easy game! In over the board play, I have not lost a game as Black in the Exchange French with a time control of G/60 or longer since 2013, and I have faced the exchange probably about 30 to 40 times since then. My only loss came in severe time trouble in a Game in 33 minutes 40 seconds tournament (New Years Day 2020, 33 minutes 40 seconds is 2020 seconds) where before the time scramble, Black was winning! So from an opening standpoint, not one failure since 2013. So while other whine about the exchange, I foam at the mouth when I see the exchange like I just found the hottest woman in the world wearing nothing!
You need to simply learn exchange Slav theory, realize how easy it is to equalize, and maybe one day you will be like me (in my case Exchange French) where in 40 games of exchange Slav over the board, you'll have 1 loss in a very short time control, and otherwise split the wins and draws about evenly. I would have to dig up all the games to get the exact numbers, but it is roughly 20 wins and 20 draws to go with that 1 loss. That is over 70 percent! 70 percent with either color is phenomenal, and in this case, we are talking Black!
Can you be more specific what do you recommend please
Can you show me
Like John Bartholomew recommends locking the bishop and playing with fire on a king side as a video,so his move is e6 etc...
Other member recommended me after my moves to play Qb6 and go that way
What do you recommend exactly? What exact moves?
Post #4 exchange Slav diagram 5th move white moves Nc3 what do you recommend next?
A lot depends on what lines you play against the normal, non-exchange lines.
After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.cxd5 cxd5 5.Nc3 Nc6.6.Bf4, being one that has played this as White many times and Black a couple of times years ago, Black has about 5 or 6 options, but 3 of them are better than the rest, and no one of the three is best. It is a matter of taste:
A) 6...a6 - This is recommended for anyone that plays the Chebanenko Slav (1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6). The reason is the position can arrive by transposition after 5.cxd5 (not White's only choice, but an option!)
B) 6...e6 - For those looking for an asymmetrical position. This tends to be the Safest line for Black, but also has the highest draw ratio.
C) 6...Bf5 - this purely symmetrical line is not without risk to both players.
Your database statistical argument for 7.Qb3 being great for White is weak. Not enough games to make such an argument. 144 vs 4969. Also, the database here is somewhat weak. Megabase 2021 is a better source.
ESP-918 wrote:
Did you watch the video?
I did. I would be more concerned about this crappy, shaky table than the board position.
pfren wrote:
ESP-918 wrote:
Did you watch the video?
I did. I would be more concerned about this crappy, shaky table than the board position.
Can you don't spam the forum please
Can you recommend which line to play after exchange slav
What would you play?
Would you play something like that :
Basically e6 he blocks his bishop and playing with fire on a king side
Or one of the members from here recommended playing Qb6
What do you recommend? Please be helpful and don't spam or troll or joke etc...
Aug 17, 2021
0
#13
I don't think that there are any gambits or tricky lines that are good for Black. The symmetrical structure is boring and dry but you can still try to outplay your opponent.
The simplest is to play one of the main lines with a6 after developing both knights. Then develop your bad bishop outside on g4 (preferably) or f5 and try to trade it off. It's more logical than locking the bishop in.
If you trade your light squared bishop for White's bishop, your plan is to bring a knight to c4. Don't trade the darksquared bishops to keep more control over c5.
If you trade your bishop for the f3 knight, your plan is to trade dark squared bishops to eliminate the bishop pair and play e5.
ESP-918 wrote:
Can you recommend which line to play after exchange slav
What would you play?
As Black, I have played mostly the ...a6 lines against the exchange Slav.
Another interesting option which results to original positions is playing ...e6 and keeping the Bishop at c8 (and no, this is NOT a bad bishop). The latter was suggested to us as a very good line against "book parrots" by GM Efim Geller, and Dreev, who is an excellent theoretican has played this a lot of times in his career.
Aug 17, 2021
0
#15
pfren wrote:
ESP-918 wrote:
Can you recommend which line to play after exchange slav
What would you play?
As Black, I have played mostly the ...a6 lines against the exchange Slav.
Another interesting option which results to original positions is playing ...e6 and keeping the Bishop at c8 (and no, this is NOT a bad bishop). The latter was suggested to us as a very good line against "book parrots" by GM Efim Geller, and Dreev, who is an excellent theoretican has played this a lot of times in his career.
Why is the bishop not a bad bishop? Is it because you develop it to b7 where it helps control e4 (or d7-c6)?
B1ZMARK wrote:
pfren wrote:
ESP-918 wrote:
Can you recommend which line to play after exchange slav
What would you play?
As Black, I have played mostly the ...a6 lines against the exchange Slav.
Another interesting option which results to original positions is playing ...e6 and keeping the Bishop at c8 (and no, this is NOT a bad bishop). The latter was suggested to us as a very good line against "book parrots" by GM Efim Geller, and Dreev, who is an excellent theoretican has played this a lot of times in his career.
Why is the bishop not a bad bishop? Is it because you develop it to b7 where it helps control e4 (or d7-c6)?
Because the center isn't fixed.
Not only this bishop isn't bad, but Black also plays ...Bd6 after ...e6 and exchanges his "good" bishop with the "bad" white one.
And the bishop won't go to b7, but rather d7.
Check the games played by Dreev to see how Black handles these positions.
Aug 18, 2021
0
#17
B1ZMARK wrote:
pfren wrote:
ESP-918 wrote:
Can you recommend which line to play after exchange slav
What would you play?
As Black, I have played mostly the ...a6 lines against the exchange Slav.
Another interesting option which results to original positions is playing ...e6 and keeping the Bishop at c8 (and no, this is NOT a bad bishop). The latter was suggested to us as a very good line against "book parrots" by GM Efim Geller, and Dreev, who is an excellent theoretican has played this a lot of times in his career.
Why is the bishop not a bad bishop? Is it because you develop it to b7 where it helps control e4 (or d7-c6)?
To add on to pfren, compare this to 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5. The center is blocked. This is a lot different than the exchange slav. Black will struggle to get that bishop out or the pawns moved. This IS a bad bishop, but it does play a vital role of guarding an often sitting duck on e6.
What you have after 6...e6 in the Exchange slav is not the same thing!
You may also notice this very instructive classic game, where a typical Slav exchange structure had occured, with Black's bishop at f5.
Capablanca did not object at all to waste a move and make this bishop "bad" voluntarily, because he had a very concrete plan on the queenside and judged that the LSB will be more useful from this square. And finally, this "bad" bishop is the decisive force which made white's position collapse (of course some weak decisions by Janowski helped quite a bit).
While it may not even be Black's best move, 10...Bd7! is a perfect example of out-of-the box strategical planning. A dogmatic player would rather cut his hand off than playing such a move.
Aug 18, 2021
0
#19
pfren wrote:
You may also notice this very instructive classic game, where a typical Slav exchange structure had occured, with Black's bishop at f5.
Capablanca did not object at all to waste a move and make this bishop "bad" voluntarily, because he had a very concrete plan on the queenside and judged that the LSB will be more useful from this square. And finally, this "bad" bishop is the decisive force which made white's position collapse (of course some weak decisions by Janowski helped quite a bit).
While it may not even be Black's best move, 10...Bd7! is a perfect example of out-of-the box strategical planning. A dogmatic player would rather cut his hand off than playing such a move.
Wouldn't it be better for White if Janowski simply took on a5 after b5 and bring his knight to c5? To me that Bishop on d7 really doesn't look great, it's dominated by the Be2. Of course that doesn't mean that it can never be activated but still, White should not lose this.
pfren wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:
pfren wrote:
ESP-918 wrote:
Can you recommend which line to play after exchange slav
What would you play?
As Black, I have played mostly the ...a6 lines against the exchange Slav.
Another interesting option which results to original positions is playing ...e6 and keeping the Bishop at c8 (and no, this is NOT a bad bishop). The latter was suggested to us as a very good line against "book parrots" by GM Efim Geller, and Dreev, who is an excellent theoretican has played this a lot of times in his career.
Why is the bishop not a bad bishop? Is it because you develop it to b7 where it helps control e4 (or d7-c6)?
Because the center isn't fixed.
Not only this bishop isn't bad, but Black also plays ...Bd6 after ...e6 and exchanges his "good" bishop with the "bad" white one.
And the bishop won't go to b7, but rather d7.
Check the games played by Dreev to see how Black handles these positions.
OK thank you !
That's a good idea about Dreev I already looked at some of his games and I like it, I will look more and try to copy his reporter for black on an exchange slav. I might even combine with John Bartholomew, because they both use similar approach with e6 blocking their bishop's on c8 and go from there.
Thank you for your time and an advice.
What I always play is , as black of course
D4 Nf6
C4 C6
Nc3 D5
C×D C×D and I'm in exchange slav territory
Can you please recommend me some tricky line in slav exchange where maybe I gambit a poison pawn or something or just some rare complicated line or something like that unusual, so I can study it well and use it against stronger opposition.
I need something like that :
https://youtu.be/kj-JmwxrnA8
Time code 0.33sec poisoned pawn
Thank you for your time.