Fighting opening against d4- Is the King indian the only non-masters can use ?

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Lawkeito

I've follow the recommendation of playing the QGD to start against 1.d4, but I don't like to play an opening where you just defend and your only chance is a draw or loss, even in my level. Not my kind of chess.

Some experienced players here said that the semi-slav, the grunfeld and the modern benoni are extremely complex to play.

So, there's only the king indian left, is that the logical choice for someone who wants to "play chess" against 1.d4 ?

Bishop_g5

Really? I didn't know Kramnik who employs exclusively the QGD doesn't want to play chess.

Listen.., its not the opening that makes the difference but how you want to play the opening!

I am afraid that with your cast of mind very soon you ll find the Kings Indian or the Gruenfeld and Nimzo-Queens Indian the same unconvincing. Perhaps the Indian defenses have the style to allow you counterattacking almost immediately in comparison with QGD but that doesn't make them easier to play, handle and all in all understand. 

The QGD is the perfect opening defense to start with against 1.d4 because it will teach you how to handle the center confrontation and pawn tension ( Isolated pawn, hanging pawns), the Carlsbad structure e.t.c

What you need is a good book and soon you will realize that waiting for White to deploy his set up in the QGD is not worse in terms of " waiting " chess than playing the KID against the Saemish or the Gruenfeld against the Exchange and the Nimzo vs the Classical.

Try GM Mathew Sadler QGD book. Its one of the best ever written in chess literature history.

https://www.amazon.com/Queens-Gambit-Declined-Matthew-Sadler/dp/1857442563

 

Lawkeito
Bishop_g5 escreveu:

Really? I didn't know Kramnik who employs exclusively the QGD doesn't want to play chess.

Listen.., its not the opening that makes the difference but how you want to play the opening!

I am afraid that with your cast of mind very soon you ll find the Kings Indian or the Gruenfeld and Nimzo-Queens Indian the same unconvincing. Perhaps the Indian defenses have the style to allow you counterattacking almost immediately in comparison with QGD but that doesn't make them easier to play, handle and all in all understand. 

The QGD is the perfect opening defense to start with against 1.d4 because it will teach you how to handle the center confrontation and pawn tension ( Isolated pawn, hanging pawns), the Carlsbad structure e.t.c

What you need is a good book and soon you will realize that waiting for White to deploy his set up in the QGD is not worse in terms of " waiting " chess than playing the KID against the Saemish or the Gruenfeld against the Exchange and the Nimzo vs the Classical.

Try GM Mathew Sadler QGD book. Its one of the best ever written in chess literature history.

https://www.amazon.com/Queens-Gambit-Declined-Matthew-Sadler/dp/1857442563

 

Thank you for the tips, I was just wondering if defending for so long like in the QGD is beneficial for a 1500 fide, who should be playing with freedom and tactics.

But I'll take a look at how to handle the QGD in a way that allow someone to enter in the game effectively. Thanks!

kindaspongey

Possibly of interest:
Understanding the Queen's Gambit Accepted by Alexander Delchev and Semko Semkov
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7536.pdf
The Killer Dutch by Simon Williams
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7499.pdf

Ziggy_Zugzwang

One possibility is to angle for a Nimzo 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Bb4, which is a very good defence, or if white goes 3Nf3, then transpose into a QGD with 3...d5, where 3Nf3 is regarded as far less potent for white than 3Nc3. As black you will need a line against the Catalan as well though.

 

Of course after 1d4 d5 2Nf3 black will also need lines against the London and Colle systems.

Lawkeito
Ziggy_Zugzwang escreveu:

One possibility is to angle for a Nimzo 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Bb4, which is a very good defence, or if white goes 3Nf3, then transpose into a QGD with 3...d5, where 3Nf3 is regarded as far less potent for white than 3Nc3. As black you will need a line against the Catalan as well though.

 

Of course after 1d4 d5 2Nf3 black will also need lines against the London and Colle systems.

True...
That's another point to the king indian, you can just fianchetto the king bishop against all of them.

Ziggy_Zugzwang

Yes, I have to admit, I've switched to the KID myself after playing chess for over forty years - better late than never :-). Players in our league are very fond of the London and personally I like this formation against it. This was after years of having variations of an ...e6 defence against white's queen pawn. London system players don't like it if you mix it up - they just like to sit down in front of a warm fire with their slippers and dressing gown on...

Lawkeito
Ziggy_Zugzwang escreveu:

Yes, I have to admit, I've switched to the KID myself after playing chess for over forty years - better late than never :-). Players in our league are very fond of the London and personally I like this formation against it. This was after years of having variations of an ...e6 defence against white's queen pawn. London system players don't like it if you mix it up - they just like to sit down in front of a warm fire with their slippers and dressing gown on...

exactly, you can't play it safe against it.

nurversagerhere

I think against weaker players the king's indian works very well but against the stronger players you have to really study the resulting positions because they will play the mainlines against you. I think it's a really complex and tactical opening. Just look at the game between gelfand and naka. Although the engine says white is better, naka destroys gelfand in a fierce attack. Engine evaluation means nothing in the KID. You have to be a creative attacker with good tactical and calculation skills.

ErikWQ

 Opening choice doesn't matter for your level. No opening or defense is drawish at your level and the KID is the most complex out of all the defenses you mention. Play whatever you want to play.

Lawkeito

Thank you for the advices, I think I misunderstand a lot of things right now, so I'll follow the useful tips you posted here.

torrubirubi

With black you will basically try to equalise in the opening. Black is defending, reacting to white moves, trying not to tricked out by move orders, and trying to make white play lines he doesn't like it doesn't know well. The QGD is solid, and like other defenses require a lot of work. I tried for a while the Grünfeld, but this was not for me, you really have to know a lot before you try to use it. I took a look on the Slav, but was rather surprised to see how complex things can get. Now I decided not to change anything and get a solid understanding of the QGD.

torrubirubi

 An extremely good repertoire for black against everything but 1.e4 are the books by GM Colovic published in Chessable. Cool is that you can ask the author about things you didn't understand. 

Boa sorte!

yureesystem
Bishop_g5 wrote:

Really? I didn't know Kramnik who employs exclusively the QGD doesn't want to play chess.

Listen.., its not the opening that makes the difference but how you want to play the opening!

I am afraid that with your cast of mind very soon you ll find the Kings Indian or the Gruenfeld and Nimzo-Queens Indian the same unconvincing. Perhaps the Indian defenses have the style to allow you counterattacking almost immediately in comparison with QGD but that doesn't make them easier to play, handle and all in all understand. 

The QGD is the perfect opening defense to start with against 1.d4 because it will teach you how to handle the center confrontation and pawn tension ( Isolated pawn, hanging pawns), the Carlsbad structure e.t.c

What you need is a good book and soon you will realize that waiting for White to deploy his set up in the QGD is not worse in terms of " waiting " chess than playing the KID against the Saemish or the Gruenfeld against the Exchange and the Nimzo vs the Classical.

Try GM Mathew Sadler QGD book. Its one of the best ever written in chess literature history.

https://www.amazon.com/Queens-Gambit-Declined-Matthew-Sadler/dp/1857442563

 

 

 

 

This is the best advice this year; QGD can offer many way to win as black in the low rated level; Alekhine beat very solid player "Capablanca" with QGD, Karpov beat Korchnoi with QGD, Kasparov as use the QGD, Fischer as use it too, Spassky use it to win the world champion against very difficult opponent Petrosian { at the time one the most difficult player to beat} and Carlsen use it very effectively  and to beat Anand; and the list goes on of  the recipients that benefit from Queen's Gambit Declined. At you level QGD can be a deadly weapon. I have use it beat experts and lower rated, especially when I don't want to risk a lost from a higher rated player I employ my favorite QGD. IM Pfren is correct about the heavy theory and the difficulties in handling the King's Indian defense; many think just push those kind side pawns and just attack, NO!, there is many facet to the king's Indian defense.

KimayaKothari

Do you wan

SmithyQ

I can certainly empathize with the OP, as it took me ages to find a reliable weapon against 1.d4.  Playing d5 was fine enough, I guess, but the positions always seemed so dry, and I never enjoyed playing the resulting middlegames.  Worse, most of the systems I did enjoy playing (Benko, QGA, Nimzo) relied on a certain move order from White, and the growing popularity of the London System stopped most of those in their tracks.

Similar again to the OP, I've been looking into the KID as a 'one-stop shop' against not just 1.d4 but everything that isn't 1.e4.  As a bonus, I'm quite poor at the KID, so studying these positions should improve my overall game ... even if it costs some rating points in the shortterm.  I hesitate to call it the easy option, as the KID has some of the most diverse positions possible from any major opening, but it's better than preparing a line against 1.c4, a line against the London, a line against the Catalan, a line against the QG, etc.  Or at least thatès my current mood.

yureesystem
JMurakami wrote:

QGD, as Black, would be nice were not for c4xd5 and the minority attack. At elite level some don't mind dealing with the pressure and getting the draw. But, below that level, it implies spending a lot of work on the details of Black's defense, or Black suffers a positional grip up and down, side to side.

That said, if all this suits the player's temperament, it's a sound system.

 

 

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Bb4 this move at lower rated can give winning chances and many other way to win for black, Kasparov as develop Na6 gaining a tempo and forcing a3 and won some game and Petrosian one my hero won against Botvinnik in QGD exchange; a real expert on Queen gambit declined can win many beautiful games especially at lower levels. Those who want a great example of employing the QGD effectively is Carlsen, I wish someone will do an article how Carlsen wins as black in QGD; lets not forget Karpov use it beating Korchno in 1981 world champion  match. One the reason Karpov is one my favorite, he play correct chess. In Alekhine and Capablanca, 1927 world champion is a lesson how to win with black using the QGD. Capablanca beat Marshall using the QGD Lasker variation. A low rated player using Queen's Gambit Declined can only benefit and become a stronger player; I remember my friend who is very strong FIDE Master said, "If you can win games using the Queen's Gambit Declined you are a stronger player." He must be correct look at the players who use it and have won many games, and I will add to the list Geller. happy.png 

nurversagerhere

I agree with the others that the QGD is a pretty viable and safe option. I mean this opening is the opening of the World Champions! How can you go wrong with that? The king's indian is a complex opening and not every GM plays it. Only a few players like Naka (who has a pretty active and agressive style but he has now converted to queens gambit nowadayswink.png) play the KID. Like @CoffeeAnd420 said if you have enough time you can benefit from studying both openings. You will gain knowledge in different kind of positions.

Against QG I like the following variation:

Kramnik played a bunch of games in that variation. Just look into a database.

nurversagerhere
pfren wrote:

Yeah definitely check out pfrens blog post. The book he's talking about contains the above  mentioned variation. Thx pfren!

Lawkeito

A lot of good advice here, I'm inclined to give the QGD another shot.

Just one thing, the "QGD" Alekhine played against capa looked like a semi-slav for me, rather than a pure QGD, but I may be confused.