... c6, and ... Bf5 or ... Bg4 in some order before ... Nd7).
French Defence
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Or 5 ... Ne7 (then ... O-O,
... c6, and ... Bf5 or ... Bg4 in some order before ... Nd7).
... c6, and ... Bf5 or ... Bg4 in some order before ... Nd7).
Ok, Thanks for the advice everybody!
Zugerzwang wrote:
Or 5 ... Ne7 (then ... O-O,
... c6, and ... Bf5 or ... Bg4 in some order before ... Nd7).
... c6, and ... Bf5 or ... Bg4 in some order before ... Nd7).
Yes, so the Bishop is free. That's logical.
Of course, that's assuming White has played Bg5 before castling.
The best line for Black in the stupid exchange is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bd6 6.O-O O-O 7.Bg5 Bg4 8.Nbd2 Nbd7 9.c3 c6 10.Qc2 Qc7 11.Rfe1 Rfe8 and White has nothing! I am not saying he is in zugzwang, but it is almost like virtual zugzwang. Either he advances a queenside pawn and commits first, moves his a1-rook to a useless square and black reacts accordingly, plays Bf5 and after the trade, the queen gets harassed being brought out too quickly and black gains time, plays h3 and now Black can contest the battery with Bh5 and Bg6 whereas white can't because g3 is under protected and he loses a pawn, or he trades rooks, reloads, and Black trades back and white is a move behind with his knight on the back rank.
Some openings, going symmetrical all the way does not work, like the Spanish 4 Knights for tactical reasons. The exchange French is more of a problem for whoever has to commit first.
I used to try to break symmetry 10 years ago and would lose. Since playing the symmetrical defense 2015 onward, I have yet to lose a game. A few draws, yes, and many wins (had one this past weekend), but no losses. Exchange sux for White! (To clarify, I refer to slow time control USCF or FIDE rated games, not internet blitz or blitz in a skittles room. Openings are irrelevant in blitz. You could play 1.h4 and win!)
ThrillerFan wrote:
AmazingAryan wrote:
verylate wrote:
Look for a player whose style you would like to emulate. Back in the day, Fischer used to play 3.Nc3 almost exclusively. Smyslov too; he and Botvinnik debated the Winawer variation in their World Championship matches in the 1950s. In his time, Karpov was partial to the quieter lines with 3.Nd2. He and Kortchnoi played a lot of games with the variation 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 in their various WCh matches.
I like how Fischer played.
And then Fischer ran into this buzzsaw named Wolfgang Uhlmann in Buenos Aires in 1960. One of my favorite games in the history of chess!
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044135
Amazing game!
ThrillerFan wrote:
The best line for Black in the stupid exchange is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bd6 6.O-O O-O 7.Bg5 Bg4 8.Nbd2 Nbd7 9.c3 c6 10.Qc2 Qc7 11.Rfe1 Rfe8 and White has nothing! I am not saying he is in zugzwang, but it is almost like virtual zugzwang. Either he advances a queenside pawn and commits first, moves his a1-rook to a useless square and black reacts accordingly, plays Bf5 and after the trade, the queen gets harassed being brought out too quickly and black gains time, plays h3 and now Black can contest the battery with Bh5 and Bg6 whereas white can't because g3 is under protected and he loses a pawn, or he trades rooks, reloads, and Black trades back and white is a move behind with his knight on the back rank.
Some openings, going symmetrical all the way does not work, like the Spanish 4 Knights for tactical reasons. The exchange French is more of a problem for whoever has to commit first.
I used to try to break symmetry 10 years ago and would lose. Since playing the symmetrical defense 2015 onward, I have yet to lose a game. A few draws, yes, and many wins (had one this past weekend), but no losses. Exchange sux for White! (To clarify, I refer to slow time control USCF or FIDE rated games, not internet blitz or blitz in a skittles room. Openings are irrelevant in blitz. You could play 1.h4 and win!)
Yes, I do not like this passive line for white.
Interesting, since most recommend avoiding symmetry as the best chance for Black to play for a win in the Exchange.
Simon Williams gives (after 4 Nf3) 4 ... c6 as the easiest way for Black to equalize, following up with ... Bd6, ... Bg4, ... Nd7, and ... Ngf6, which could end up symmetrical, though he just says he doesn't see how White can hope to gain an advantage against this set-up and says nothing about Black's winning chances.
Simon Williams gives (after 4 Nf3) 4 ... c6 as the easiest way for Black to equalize, following up with ... Bd6, ... Bg4, ... Nd7, and ... Ngf6, which could end up symmetrical, though he just says he doesn't see how White can hope to gain an advantage against this set-up and says nothing about Black's winning chances.
Zugerzwang wrote:
Interesting, since most recommend avoiding symmetry as the best chance for Black to play for a win in the Exchange.
Simon Williams gives (after 4 Nf3) 4 ... c6 as the easiest way for Black to equalize, following up with ... Bd6, ... Bg4, ... Nd7, and ... Ngf6, which could end up symmetrical, though he just says he doesn't see how White can hope to gain an advantage against this set-up and says nothing about Black's winning chances.
Simon Williams gives (after 4 Nf3) 4 ... c6 as the easiest way for Black to equalize, following up with ... Bd6, ... Bg4, ... Nd7, and ... Ngf6, which could end up symmetrical, though he just says he doesn't see how White can hope to gain an advantage against this set-up and says nothing about Black's winning chances.
Those are the same moves as the moves I gave in a different order. Yes, it can end up a draw, but if I am playing for 2 results, and losing is not one of them, I'm happy!
One of your best alternatives to the Exchange is probably the Advance (3 e5). You could try 3 Nc3 but would need preparation to face the Winawer (3 ... Bb4). Black could also play the Rubinstein (3... dxe4) or the Classical (3 ... Nf6) when you'd need to choose between 4 e5 or Bg5. If 4 Bg5, you'd need to be prepared for 4 ... Bb4 (the MacCutcheon) as well as 4 ... Be7.
Not quite as aggressive, but generally safe and secure (I think it was Karpov's favorite way to play) is the Tarrasch with 3 Nd2. Black can still play the Rubinstein against this with 3 ... dxe4. You would exert less pressure on the center, but your game would be free of weaknesses.
Not quite as aggressive, but generally safe and secure (I think it was Karpov's favorite way to play) is the Tarrasch with 3 Nd2. Black can still play the Rubinstein against this with 3 ... dxe4. You would exert less pressure on the center, but your game would be free of weaknesses.
Yes, Thrillerfan, it is the same moves you gave and if White plays the same way, it would end up in your variation. Most other authors recommend developing asymmetrically, often even with opposite side castling as Black's best way to proceed against the Exchange. I haven't really played it enough myself against strong players to know if it would work for me, but many IM's and GM's say this is Black's best chance for a win. It does seem much riskier, so your line is probably best if a draw is acceptable. I had generally always played the Sicilian rather than the French, but have been trying to learn the French.
Zugerzwang wrote:
Yes, Thrillerfan, it is the same moves you gave and if White plays the same way, it would end up in your variation. Most other authors recommend developing asymmetrically, often even with opposite side castling as Black's best way to proceed against the Exchange. I haven't really played it enough myself against strong players to know if it would work for me, but many IM's and GM's say this is Black's best chance for a win. It does seem much riskier, so your line is probably best if a draw is acceptable. I had generally always played the Sicilian rather than the French, but have been trying to learn the French.
Just in case you are curious about the game, which White did have chances to draw, it is below. i will have it fully annotated on the blog I write for in 3 to 4 weeks (will be my third post from now).
Aryan you’re a BOT
BlizzardLizzard wrote:
Use the advance variation 3.e5
no it's too weak
verylate wrote:
nice minor piece ending, ThrillerFan. And yes, the game does highlight the psychological weakness of the exchange variation. Black, by refusing to try to twist teh position into an artificial asymmetry, asks white: "OK, you are willing to forego winning chances for a drawish middlegame. But are you sure you can draw a drawn endgame?" Personally, I prefer to twist positions into artificial asymmetry in order to reach rich, complex middlegames, but that's my own cup of tea, and I've choked on it more than once. C'est la vie
Let's put it another way; which french defense variations and systems do you (meaning the reader, not just you, TF) feel comfortable playing both sides of? Which systems do you look at and say, " I have a repertoire answer to this, but I could never play it from the other side"? I am happy with either side of the advance (happier on the back side, but I have played both), 3.Nc3 and 3.Nd2. I don't believe I have ever played the Rubinstein (3...dxe4) as black, and I think I've only played the exchange (3.e4xd5) as white in a few skittles games. Just not my cuppa. I may not be a rich man, but my father didn't raise me to be a beggar either. But playing against lines that I don't like, don't think much of, I find that I play much more slowly, more hesitantly, less confidently in the opening than in lines that are my back garden.
By the way, the draw he missed was to push d5 instead of b5 at the end. After the b5 push and the Knight check, White's in trouble, even if he stays in the box of the f-pawn.
Thanks, ThrillerFan. Nice game.
Nice example, ThrillerFan. I actually played this exact variation of the French Defence as White in this year's National Open, and I managed to draw an endgame similar to yours. He forced a queen trade and I got into an drawn minor piece endgame.
Thanks for showing us some nice endgame technique!
French can lead to either very passive positions or very open positions
Can somebody help me to play against the French Defence? This is usually what I play against it:
I don't really like the Exchange Variation because I think it is too passive. Thank you!
6...Nbd7 is wrong for Black. 6...c6, 6...Bg4, or 6...O-O is better. I would play the third, personally.