french defence (advance)

don't know, apparently some shit played it, so they say, but you know me, no prejudice, and not that I have anything to do with it or whoever said it instead of me

ok man

A lot depends on your purpose for 4...Qb6.  If it is to transpose to the main lines with 5...Nc6 and avoid some of White's quirky lines, then yes, there is no issue with 4...Qb6.  White's options of sidelines are different with 4...Qb6 than 4...Nc6, but none of White's sidelines are any good anyway, like 4...Nc6 5.Bb5 is typical amateur garbage and I would be thrilled to face that as Black.  Of course, with 4...Qb6, this is not an option for White.

If your primary goal is to play 4...Qb6 and then 5...Bd7 and 6...Bb5, in some weak attempt to trade the Bishops.  Many beginners who know the basics of the French Advance but not the nuances that both sides have will move the Bishop on move 6 and Black will be happy.

HOWEVER:  After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3!, Black has nothing better than 6...Nc6, transposing to the 6...Bd7 line of the 5...Qb6 6.a3 advance French as 6...Bb5?! is rudely met by 7.c4! where 7...dxc4 8.Nc3 and 7...Bxc4 8.Bxc4 dxc4 and now 9.d5 or 9.Nbd2 all score really well for White!

So if you are ok with the 6...Bd7 lines of the 5...Qb6 6.a3 Advance French (instead of 6...c4, 6...a5, or 6...Nh6), then by all means play 4...Qb6 first and see if you can get White to play the inferior 6.Be2 or 6.Bd3 where Black gets a good game, but be willing to transpose back to the 4...Nc6 lines if White plays the correct 6.a3!

The second reason to play 4...Qb6 (again, you must be happy with the 6...Bd7 response to 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3) is to avoid the massively drawish line, 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Be2 (instead of 6.a3!).  Black is by all means safer after 5...Qb6 6.Be2 than he is after 5...Qb6 6.a3, but in the former, there are little to no winning chances for Black (or White for that matter).

Sorry about the delayed response, didn't log in over the weekend.

The line you give is probably one of Black's best lines (6.Be2 f6 7.O-O is better for White).

However, White is under no obligation to play 10.g4 or 10.O-O.  Actually, I see many players play 8...Ng6 instead of 8...Nf5, and 9.h4! is very strong for White there.  After the "Correct" 8...Nf5 that you propose, 9.Nc2 Qb6 can be followed up by 10.O-O or 10.g4, the latter of which seems to have tailed off as Black has been getting good results, but 10.h4 has been regaining popularity, which is what I play.  Black's best is probably 10...Rc8, but highly popular is 10...Nb4 on the basis that White will lose castling rights after 11.Nxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Kf1!, but White's King is actually very happy to sit on f1.

ok thriller !! you make me really thrilled!!!but....

5.Nf3!  All day, any day!--- i prefer the most best answer!!..   .........

@ThrillerFan, after 10.h4 Nb4 (I saw ...Na5 at top level with good results but I don't know it well) 11.Nxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Kf1, White's King is may be happy but White does not seem to have achieved more than losing its right to castle.

As my personal choice, I would play 12...h5 followed by ...Bb5 in order to exchange my light square Bishop and would Black position looks perfectly fine without any particular weakness.

The fact is that I consider the advance variation to be unchallenging mostly because it does not make me think a lot to find a good move and it hardly creates unbalanced positions when I stick to my opening choices.

And if you go computer vs computer or Kasparov vs Kasparov, it probably is a draw, as is the case with all openings.  And just like post 20 indicates, unclear after White's 10th move, and there, your 12...h5 was indeed played.  Of course, White stops your Bb5 idea, which is what I would do against ...h5.  You stop me, I stop you!

However, when talking about two players under 2500, this is a very complex line of a very complex opening, and to make the blanket statement that the Advance Variation is simple and White is doing nothing is ludicrous.  When I was playing 1.e4 exclusively (now I play e4, d4, and Nf3) about 2 years ago, I had a stretch where if you only took my games as White versus the French, which was about 25 of them give or take 1 or 2 in either direction, over the course of about an 18 month span, my record was 1 loss, 2 draws, and the rest wins.  Average Opponent?  About 2050, with 2 of the 3 non-wins coming against players over 2250.

Is the French refuted?  No!

Is the French Advance "simple"?  No!

Chill out, I did not mean to offend you.

And I said "The fact is that I consider the advance variation to be unchallenging mostly because it does not make me think a lot to find a good move and it hardly creates unbalanced positions when I stick to my opening choices."

It's a personal assessment related to my personal choice and tastes.

It happened that, as you have good results against it, I don't feel particularly threatened by it as Black.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your "you stop me, I stop you" and the game does not seem "unclear" to me after move 10. :/

Once more, I'm at ease in this kind of positions, that's why it seems bland to me.

The French advance is very simple: fork, fork, pin and mate!

You had said that after 10...Nb4 11.Nxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Kf1 that you would play 12...h5 followed by trading your Bishop with Bb5

Well, you stop White from expanding on the Kingside with g4 and h5, then White stops you from your desired Bishop trade.  See post 20.  Black did indeed play 12...h5 in that game, and White proceeds with a3, kicking the Bishop away, and then a4, preventing your desired ...Bb5.

That's what I was referring to with the "You Stop Me, I Stop You" reference.  You prevent my expansion, I prevent your trade, and you end up with a mess like you see in post 20.  Not that I have played this "exact game" 27 moves deep, but if Black were to follow exact moves against me, you could have the position after White's 14th move occur on my board with me being White!

@eaguiraud:

Simple question: If you don't know how to play the advance variation "at our level", do you know how to play a single variation, and which one?

The French advance variation is probably the opening I understand the most and on which I easily have a decent position throughout the game. If I don't know "how to play it", I know nothing.

Of course my level of knowledge and understanding is not as high as an IM, and an IM level is not as high as a GM who does not have the same level of understanding regarding a top GM and so on.

But does that mean that, at their respective level, they are all dumb because someone else is better? I don't think so and I don't buy the "we-don't-understand-chess-before-2500-elo" kind of argument like if our brain was pure void till 2499 or any other arbitrary limit. :/

@ThrillerFan:

Oh, okay. Well of course there is a move and a counter move and so one. ^^

Once again, I only said the French advance has always been easy to me as Black regarding other French variations (especially the Tarrasch in my case) and even openings in general.

Don't be mistaken by the absence of facial expressions and the number of "?", I'm perfectly calm :).

(though the same comment applies for Black and White ;) )

I would debate that.

@Robert: I cannot debate such... line^^ because I play 4...Bd7.

One of the reasons of this move order is precisely that I don't want my Queen to be in b6 if White plays an early 6.a3 since in such case I play f6 and White's e5 pawn becomes my point of pressure instead of d4 (the Queen being more useful in c7 then).

I'm just the opposite.  Played the French for 10 years before quitting due to two variations.  The Advance and the Steinitz (3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 - had no issues with 4.Bg5, always did well with the MacCutcheon).

To me, the Exchange and the Tarrasch are both a joke.  I don't think I need to explain the Exchange.

As for the Tarrasch, equality is simple, but you must understand how to handle IQP positions.  Having played enough 1.d4 in my lifetime, I can handle IQP or oppose IQP positions:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! c5! and now:

A) 4.Ngf3 Nf6 forces White to either exchange or play the Korchnoi gambit (7.Nf3 in the Closed Tarrasch instead of 7.Ne2 - this would transpose to that after 5.e5), and doesn't have the option at f4 lines against the Closed Tarrasch (i.e. 3...Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4)

B) 4.exd5 exd5! and now:

B1) 5.Bb5+ Bd7! 6.Qe2+ Be7 7.dxc5 and while White is temporarily up a pawn, he can't hold onto it.

B2) 5.Ngf3 Nf6! 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8.O-O Be7 (better than 8...Bd6 due to checks on the e-file) 9.dxc5 Nxc5 10.Nb3 Nce4!  Compare this line to the "old" 5...Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd6 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.O-O Nge7 9.Nb3 Bd6.  We have the exact same position for White minus the Bishop in the first line, and Black the difference is the minor pieces:  Ne4/Nf6/Be7 vs Nc6/Ne7/Bd6.  The former is better for Black than the latter, and White is without his best piece in the former, and Black has ridded himself of his worst minor piece!

White scores something like 50.2% with the former line, and over 60% in the latter line.

If I were assured a Tarrasch, I'd play the French again in a heartbeat!

Uhm, your question makes no sense.  I'm not calling a sound defense a joke.  I'm calling White's 3.Nd2 a joke.  The attack is a joke, not the defense!  I see 3.e5 and 3.Nc3, the latter being slightly stronger, as White's only two tries at an advantage.

Any line by White that gives Black instant equality, in my book, is a joke!  White should be able to achieve that slight advantage.

Equality and theoretically drawn are not the same thing.  White should be the one pressing, not Black.  Sure maybe Black can draw the Winawer, or the Advance, but it's not smooth sailing for Black like it is in the Exchange or line of the Tarrasch given 2 posts ago.

And you say "According to my database ...", so you are the owner of 365chess.com?  Doesn't take long to figure out that is what you are using.

And also, if you base percentages on move 3, your analysis is severely flawed!  Let's dig a little deeper, using ONLY the 365chess.com database, no other resources because clearly they are meaningless according to you:

So you want to claim 3...Nf6 is so great because it scores higher.  Now, going on your basis of highest scoring lines and making that your choice, after the practically forced moves 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Nf3 Bd6 11.O-O, of Black's 3 main options, 11...O-O, 11...Qc7, and 11...Qb6, the 3rd scores the highest on the only database on the planet, so you choose 11...Qb6 (which could also be played on move 7 or 8)

So after 11...Qb6, 12.b3 has been causing far more headaches than the older 12.Nc3, and I'm going based on current theory, articles, multiple databases, research, the whole 9 yards, not just merely 365chess, the only database on the planet according to you.

So based on the only chess database in the world, Black's best percentage is with 12...O-O (overall percentage, not just percentage of wins),  so you play 12...O-O.   I now play 13.Bf4.

WOW!  How are those win percentages looking for Black compared to move 3?

This is why I say that basing on a percentage score of a single database at an early move like move 3 is flawed logic!  You get a better idea of percentages when you delve deeper into lines!  It weaves out the garbage that skews the numbers!

Also, if you are going to play the French Winawer, and White scores, hypothetically, 57% by playing 3.Nc3.  Well, what good does that data do you?  That includes McCutcheon, Classical, Steinitz, Winawer, Delayed Exchange Lines, etc.  Maybe the Steinitz scores 61%, and skews the total numbers whereas maybe the Winawer only scores White 55%, and the MacCutcheon 54%.

Don't try to convince me that percentage numbers on 365chess.com at move 3 prove diddly-squat!