Good answer to 1 e4 c5 for Scotch fan ? - Chess Forums - Page 2

ThrillerFan

Sep 24, 2013

0

#21

pfren wrote:

Umm... whatever you say.

There is no point arguing with you, your doctor will protest.

For the record, the only equalizing line for Black is 9...Bc5!, but I have no intention teaching illiterates- especially since all that are well documented in the Antic/Maksimovic repertoire book on the French. No need to repeat their fine analysis for people who don't understand shit.

ROFLMAO - You base validity on a single repertoire book? I've got between 15 and 20 books on the French dated everywhere from 1995 to today. You're messing with the wrong guy when it comes to light-square defenses (French, Caro-Kann, QGD, Catalan, etc).

9...Bc5 is not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not Black's only choice. Try doing some objective research via objective books on the French, databases, etc.

Oh My God, according to pfren, because Grandmaster Repertoire 7 recommends 4...Bf5 against the Classical Caro-Kann, that must be an Only Move! 4...Nd7 and 4...Nf6 must both be completely refuted because of a Repertoire book!

I guess that must also mean that whatever lines Eric Schiller recommended in his awful repertoire books over the years must be only moves also, right?

ThrillerFan

Sep 24, 2013

0

#22

richie_and_oprah wrote:

one thing i have experienced in forty years of chess and i think might be insightful to some is that the stronger the players get the less they seem to be sure of anything when asked to offer opinion

So based on this statement, if you go to the following crosstable via the link below, I should make sure I get all my advice from Ben Tarkenton?

http://www.charlottechess.com/CrstblPPP.html

Foenixx

Sep 24, 2013

0

#23

Hi ThrillerFan,

I stopped playing chess about 20 years ago (when I was 20 years old) and now I am restarting. My national OTB rating was close to 2000.
In the past I played indeed the Milner Barry Gambit with Nc3, but I agree with you this line is not good for White. And Nbd2, even if not refuted, looks also dubious. Now I’m looking for a better continuation for White.
Well, I was planning to play the FR Tarrasch and you say White gets nothing

What about this line in the Tarrasch FR? As far as I know this is one of the mainlines.

My opinion was, playing against the Pd5 should give White an edge (+=). But it’s a very positional line and maybe my evaluation is wrong.

What are your experiences with this line? Is it really easy to equalize for Black here?

toiyabe

Sep 24, 2013

0

#24

Wow, thrillerfan is the posterchild of an elitist jackass.

ThrillerFan

Sep 24, 2013

0

#25

Foenixx,

Black should have no problems equalizing in this line except I would change one move for Black. Instead of 13...Qc7, safer is 13...Qc8, and if you check out any database (Chesslab, NewInChess, etc), you'll see the extremely high draw ratio, especially in recent games.

Keep in mind, never said the Tarrasch is refuted. When I say "White gets nothing", that mean zero advantage, not a busted position.

For example, if you take NewInChess Database, and you go for the line you mentioned above except changing Black's 13th move from 13...Qc7 to the safer 13...Qc8, in 51 games, 38 of them were drawn! Of the 13 games that were decisive, which is a nominal number given there were 51 games all told with this position, White did outscore Black 8 to 5, but the 38 draws still goes to show that this is very much dead equal and very drawish.

ThrillerFan

Sep 24, 2013

0

#26

Fixing_A_Hole wrote:

Wow, thrillerfan is the posterchild of an elitist jackass.

And what does that make you Fixing_A_Hole? The biggest Moron of America?

aggressivesociopath

Sep 24, 2013

0

#27

This might be the only active thread on the opening forums worth reading. Who cares of ThrillerFan and Pfren won't address each other in a civil manner? Having actual content should count for something.

toiyabe

Sep 24, 2013

0

#28

ThrillerFan wrote:

Fixing_A_Hole wrote:

Wow, thrillerfan is the posterchild of an elitist jackass.

And what does that make you Fixing_A_Hole? The biggest Moron of America?

Such stunning wit...I expected a more creative verbal assault from you.

To try and contribute something for the OP:

If you enjoy Scotch positions but can't seem to find a variation you like against 1...c5, I would just advise studying the Nf3 + d4 lines and adopting them...if you like the open attacking ideas of the Scotch, how can you NOT want to take on the Open sicilian? Even if you haven't scored greatly with the open sicilian, you can still improve your results with study. White has many options against d6, Nc6, or e6 on the second move as far as variations after Nxd4, I would just pick some lines that interest you. If you are deadset against this, then the Bb5 sicilians are the next best thing...they are used at the highest level frequently, avoid the theory of the open sicilian and you can still play for an edge. I would just assume that if you like Scotch lines that you would love the active piece play after 2. Nf3 3. d4 against the Sicilian. Good luck.

BattleManager

Sep 24, 2013

0

#29

ThrillerFan wrote:

As for the French, being a former French player myself (1996 to 2007), I can tell you with over 350 tournaments games with the French (about 300 of them as Black) that there are two good lines against the French, and two that give white aboslutely nothing if Black plays it right. Keep in mind, it doesn't matter that you are facing 1500 now. If you get better, and are playing a line that will never work against better players, you have to start all over again at square 1 when you reach say, 1900.

That said, the Exchange gets white zip! With or without c4! Nothing! Nada! Zilch!

The other variation that gets White nothing is the Tarrasch. Many Black players will play 3...Nf6 because the ideas are simpler than that of IQP positions, but the reality is, White gets absolutely nothing if Black plays the following:

First off, 3...c5! Now if 4.Ngf3, only then 4...Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 6.c3 Nc6 7.Bd3, leading to the Korchnoi Gambit, and after 7...Qb6 8.O-O cxd4 9.cxd4 f6 (instead of accepting with 9...Nxd4) scores White a mere 50%

So that leaves 4.exd5. After 4...exd5, if White plays 5.Bb5+, answer with the pawn sacrifice, 5...Bd7 6.Qe2+ Be7! and even in Newinchess.com's online database, White scores a mere 38.5% across 92 games (12 wins, 33 losses, 47 draws)

Therefore, that leaves 5.Ngf3, and instead of the "old" 5...Nc6, that leads to a heavy number of draws, and most of those not drawn are wins for White, the more modern 5...Nf6! has been scoring really well for Black in the last 10 years.

So all of that said, that leaves two possibilites for White, both of which have been leading to problems for Black.

For players that prefer static positions with locked pawns, play the Advance Variation, specifically the lines with 6.a3. The gambit lines with 6.Bd3 are busted, and 6.Be2 is no better than the Tarrasch Variation. After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 (or 5...Bd7), 6.a3 has been giving Black fits for the last 7 or so years due to many new ideas found for White in the mid-2000s.

If you prefer a more wild and dynamic game, play 3.Nc3!, which is supposed to be a tad stronger than 3.e5. The lines with 7.Qg4 against the Winawer along with the Steinitz (3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5) have been giving Black problems as of late. This requires more studying and more work, and you may start off with a bunch of losses, but in the long run, you'll get a lot further with these lines than you will 3.exd5 or 3.Nd2.

I think concentrating too much on statistics is unnecessary and useless...in the Tarrasch line with Ngf3, ...cxd4 + f6 was supposed to be fine for white because of a plan of playing Ne5 + Ndf3 + b3 + Bb2. Maybe many lines don't give white an advantage but that is not so important, understanding the positions and enjoying them is much more relevant. For example, even in top level games, everyone is now playing the Spanish with d3 all the time and despite that i haven't seen anyone claim that it gives white any sort of advantage.