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Help me master the Stonewall please!

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Avatar of Die_Schanze
Die_Schanze
Feb 3, 2020
0
#41

I think that a player especially in the U1000s who wants to get much stronger should play for open positions and attacks, most common after 1. e4. Kings Gambit, Greco gambit, Danish Gambit, whatever. And some attacking shemes against other defences, Vincent Moret's "My first chess opening repertoire for white" has some nice attacking shemes and one could learn a lot about tactics in the opening. Don't hide behind a wall of stones, you'll limit yourself. The point is that most closed position will eventually open and everyone needs to play open positions with many possible tactics every move. 

Even at my rating i often get stonewallers at blitz games who badly misplay when their initail attacks fail, e. g. exchanging everything but their bad bishop and then losing against a superior knight. Yes, sometimes it holds even then, but it's a long torture for the stonewaller.

Avatar of RussBell
RussBell
Feb 3, 2020
0
#42
Die_Schanze wrote:

I think that a player especially in the U1000s who wants to get much stronger should play for open positions and attacks, most common after 1. e4. Kings Gambit, Greco gambit, Danish Gambit, whatever. And some attacking shemes against other defences, Vincent Moret's "My first chess opening repertoire for white" has some nice attacking shemes and one could learn a lot about tactics in the opening. Don't hide behind a wall of stones, you'll limit yourself. The point is that most closed position will eventually open and everyone needs to play open positions with many possible tactics every move. 

Even at my rating i often get stonewallers at blitz games who badly misplay when their initail attacks fail, e. g. exchanging everything but their bad bishop and then losing against a superior knight. Yes, sometimes it holds even then, but it's a long torture for the stonewaller.

I agree with much of your perspective.  That is, for the beginner, it is recommended to start out playing the so-called 'Open Games' (i.e., double King pawn openings, beginning with 1.e4 e5), in particular those openings which promote primarily tactical (as opposed to positional) play.  In this regard, Vincent Moret's "My Favorite Chess Opening Repertoire For White" is an excellent opening repertoire book targeted to the beginner-intermediate player.  Check out my review of the book in my blog article....

Good Chess Books for Beginners and Beyond...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/good-chess-books-for-beginners-and-beyond

The Open Game...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Game

Avatar of congrandolor
congrandolor
Feb 3, 2020
0
#43

 @ThrillerFan I followed your advice and checked the meaning of garbage  in a dictionary. Garbage: rubbish, trash. Something utterly useless. So you say the Stonewall Attack is useless, something like the Damiano defense, for example. I'm still waiting for you to show the forced win for black in this line. Please, show us your 2100 rated wisdom.

By the way, you can also show the forced win for black in the French Exchange, wich is also garbage in your opinion (while Richard Rapport destroys his opponents with it).

Avatar of nighteyes1234
nighteyes1234
Feb 3, 2020
0
#44
congrandolor wrote:

 @ThrillerFan I followed your advice and checked the meaning of garbage  in a dictionary. Garbage: rubbish, trash. Something utterly useless. So you say the Stonewall Attack is useless, something like the Damiano defense, for example. I'm still waiting for you to show the forced win for black in this line. Please, show us your 2100 rated wisdom.

 

I think its already been pointed out that even the promoters say up to 1800 USCF. So whatever its is, its learning info that is useless later on, unless its learned as black.

For noobs as black, its 1 d4 d5 2 e3 Bf5...and dont worry about 'forced loss' of white, but middlegame.

Then (way) later on one can learn about the lack of d5.

 

 

Avatar of old_acc_mm
old_acc_mm
Feb 3, 2020
0
#45

@ThrillerFan

"The Stonewall Dutch and the Stonewall Attack are nothing alike. The Stonewall Dutch works under certain circumstances. 1.d4 (Weakens e4) f5 (controls e4) 2.g3 (*if 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6, the move 4.Nf3 is ok for White and the Stonewall is HORRIBLE! Black needs to play 4...Bb4. If White has not advance the g-pawn or e-pawn, and can still play 5.Bf4, 6.e3, and 7.Bd3, then the Stonewall is hot garbage. Black's first priority should be to want to play 4...by after f5/Nf6/e6. This is why White usually fianchetto, to stop b6. If Ehite plays an early Nh3, then the Classical setup is better."

*this bracket begins but never ends

"valuable information" really? You are spewing random moves (which you managed to make beyond confusing with typos) and opening names to a <1000 player with colours reversed!

Avatar of old_acc_mm
old_acc_mm
Feb 3, 2020
0
#46
congrandolor wrote:

 @ThrillerFan I followed your advice and checked the meaning of garbage  in a dictionary. Garbage: rubbish, trash. Something utterly useless. So you say the Stonewall Attack is useless, something like the Damiano defense, for example. I'm still waiting for you to show the forced win for black in this line. Please, show us your 2100 rated wisdom.

By the way, you can also show the forced win for black in the French Exchange, wich is also garbage in your opinion (while Richard Rapport destroys his opponents with it).

An opening is not good for a certain playing level. The Exchange French is not good for anyone over 2000 because it's too hard to create winning chances (and black has minimal opening problems). Similarly, the Stonewall is not good over 1800 or so because it is too easy for black to equalize.

Just because Rapport or Kasparov can win with it, doesn't mean it's good.

Avatar of old_acc_mm
old_acc_mm
Feb 3, 2020
0
#47
[]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 that the move 5...Bd7 is now dubious and that other moves that directly go for the attack on d4, like 5...Qb6, 5...Nh6, or 5...Nge7, is stronger. 

All the rest of the "hot garbage" aside, I actually want to know why is Bd7 "dubious", is there a (well-known) path to advantage for white?

I am especially surprised since as far as I can tell, Bd7 is basically as popular as Qb6.

Avatar of kindaspongey
kindaspongey
Feb 3, 2020
0
#48
manifest_glory wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

... It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

And yeah I've researched the SA a bit before and am fully aware that the SA is pretty bad once you get good.  However, I'm not good and am preparing to use this opening at a school tournament in a couple weeks.

I think there is widespread agreement that the best course for a beginner is to go with 1 e4 and take one’s lumps as one gradually learns more. On the other hand, I have not seen widespread agreement that it would necessarily be a serious disaster if an ~800 player chose to go for the Stonewall in a tournament. There are those who are sympathetic to such a choice and Stewart seems to have been one of them. As I recall, his Stonewall coverage was indeed limited, but I wonder if it is perhaps suited for what you can reasonably expect to learn in the available time. I think it did include some discussion of ideas for White when facing an uncooperative opponent. As others have suggested, you can look at various free resources, but they may turn out to be intended for an audience with a higher rating.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708105336/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review901.pdf

Avatar of RussBell
RussBell
Feb 4, 2020
0
#49
kindaspongey wrote:
manifest_glory wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

... It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

And yeah I've researched the SA a bit before and am fully aware that the SA is pretty bad once you get good.  However, I'm not good and am preparing to use this opening at a school tournament in a couple weeks.

I think there is widespread agreement that the best course for a beginner is to go with 1 e4 and take one’s lumps as one gradually learns more. On the other hand, I have not seen widespread agreement that it would necessarily be a serious disaster if an ~800 player chose to go for the Stonewall in a tournament. There are those who are sympathetic to such a choice and Stewart seems to have been one of them. As I recall, his Stonewall coverage was indeed limited, but I wonder if it is perhaps suited for what you can reasonably expect to learn in the available time. I think it did include some discussion of ideas for White when facing an uncooperative opponent. As others have suggested, you can look at various free resources, but they may turn out to be intended for an audience with a higher rating.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708105336/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review901.pdf

The following is the reviewer's assessment of Stewart's book at the end of the book review...  

"There is no doubt about the earnestness of the author [i.e., Stewart] in writing Chess
Psychology: The Will to Win and there is some good advice to be found in
regards to chess improvement. Unfortunately, it is also packaged with empty
platitudes, meaningless phrases, and vapid self-help-style drivel. It's enough
to turn one off it.
My assessment of this product: [given 2 out of a possible 5 stars]"

This description essentially describes the entirety of the book.  I own the book.  As far as I am concerned, it was a waste of my money.  In my estimation there is little of value in it for any player regardless of whether one is a beginner or Master or anywhere in between.  

@kindaspongey - do you own a copy of this book, or have you read/seen its content? 

 

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Feb 4, 2020
0
#50
MangoMankey wrote:
[]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 that the move 5...Bd7 is now dubious and that other moves that directly go for the attack on d4, like 5...Qb6, 5...Nh6, or 5...Nge7, is stronger. 

All the rest of the "hot garbage" aside, I actually want to know why is Bd7 "dubious", is there a (well-known) path to advantage for white?

I am especially surprised since as far as I can tell, Bd7 is basically as popular as Qb6.

 

The problem with 5...Bd7 is it does nothing immediately and is too slow.  It allows White to fully consolidate, put the King to safety, and still prevent Black's attack.

 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7?!

  • 5...Qb6 6.a3 is best becuase now if 6.Be2, then 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 and now
    • 8.O-O Nf5 and the pawn drops as after 9.Be3, this is one case where Black can safely take the b2-pawn with advantage
    • 8.Nc3 Nf5 9.Na4 Qa5+ (The fact that this is check makes all the difference) 10.Bd2 Bb4 11.Bc3 b5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Nxc3 (cannot take back with the pawn due to the Knight hanging) 13...b4 14.axb4 Qxb4 with a slight advantage for Black.  His pieces are more active
  • 5...Nge7 and 5...Nh6 are also better than 5...Bd7 because they also immediately go for the attack on d4.

 

6.Be2! and now 6...Nge7 is too slow.  After 7.O-O!, going for the attack on d4 is too slow, too little, too late!  7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Nc3! Qb6 10.Na4! and the fact that 10...Qa5 is no longer check makes all the difference and White maintains the advantage.

 

The move ...Bd7 should be held off until later in the opening.  By attacking d4 immediately, White has no time to develop and castle, and that is why 6.a3 Nh6 7.b4 is played instead, to be able to get the Bishop to b2 to guard d4, but that takes time and White can't castle any time soon.  After 7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Bb2, Black has the choice of 9...Bd7 (preventing 10.Bd3), then 10.g4 is necessary, spending more time not castling, while 9...Be7, making 10.g4 bad due to 10...Nh4, White should bring the Bishop to its most active square, 10.Bd3. 

 

The early ...f6 is also mentioned.  After 5...Bd7?! 6.Be2! f6, White should ignore it and castle!  7.O-O! fxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.fxe5 Qc7 and now White can play the materialistic and positional 10.f4, which is fine, but stronger is 10.c4 and if Black takes the pawn on e5 via 10...Qxe5, White gets loads of play for the pawn and Black is underdeveloped.  For example, 11.Bh5+ g6 12.Bf3 O-O-O 13.Re1 with a huge initiative.

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Feb 4, 2020
0
#51

The previous post and this one were copied from posts by me on another thread.  I hope they answer your question.  The reference to "post 42" is post 52 here.  Post 42 was the post number of the previous message in the "original" thread that this came from on the Advance French.

 

If someone twisted my arm and pointed a gun to my head to play 5...Bd7, I would have to grit my teeth and play the 6...f6 line, but I would not grab the e-pawn after 10.c4 (see post 42).

Post 42 also shows why I see the Qb6 idea as useless after 5...Bd7?! 6.Be2!, and why 6.Be2 is useless for White against 5...Qb6.

It should also be mentioned that delaying cxd4 too long for Black, preventing Nb1-c3-a4 fails eventually to dxc5 and b4 where taking on f2 is a tactical blunder.

 

I know it all looks the same, but the timing of Black's moves drastically changes White's situation.  Immediately pressuring d4 makes trying to castle fast a move too slow for White.  After you have forced White to change course with a3, b4, and Bb2 to guard d4, and the B on f1 is still at home (i.e. Move 9), now Black can take the time to play Bd7 since now it makes 10.Be2 h5 very passive for White, 10.Bd3 impossible because it drops a pawn, and 10.g4! Nh6 11.h3 f6, immediately pressuring e5, forces White to spend more time on things outside of king safety.

I should add that White's Knight is also still on b1, not c3, so that is 3 factors that delaying Bd7 has done for Black.

The N is still on b1, the Bishop is still on f1, and the King is not safe.  All 3 are resolved by move 10 after 5...Bd7.

Avatar of WSama
WSama
Feb 4, 2020
0
#52

I will teach you the stone wall attack now. Are you ready?

4.dxe5

Avatar of kindaspongey
kindaspongey
Feb 4, 2020
0
#53
RussBell wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
manifest_glory wrote:

... And yeah I've researched the SA a bit before and am fully aware that the SA is pretty bad once you get good.  However, I'm not good and am preparing to use this opening at a school tournament in a couple weeks.

I think there is widespread agreement that the best course for a beginner is to go with 1 e4 and take one’s lumps as one gradually learns more. On the other hand, I have not seen widespread agreement that it would necessarily be a serious disaster if an ~800 player chose to go for the Stonewall in a tournament. There are those who are sympathetic to such a choice and Stewart seems to have been one of them. As I recall, his Stonewall coverage was indeed limited, but I wonder if it is perhaps suited for what you can reasonably expect to learn in the available time. I think it did include some discussion of ideas for White when facing an uncooperative opponent. As others have suggested, you can look at various free resources, but they may turn out to be intended for an audience with a higher rating.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708105336/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review901.pdf

The following is the reviewer's assessment of Stewart's book at the end of the book review...  

"There is no doubt about the earnestness of the author [i.e., Stewart] in writing Chess
Psychology: The Will to Win and there is some good advice to be found in
regards to chess improvement. Unfortunately, ..."

... I own the book.  As far as I am concerned, it was a waste of my money.  In my estimation there is little of value in it for any player regardless of whether one is a beginner or Master or anywhere in between.  

@kindaspongey - do you own a copy of this book, or have you read/seen its content? 

I have browsed through the book. I had a copy and may still have it, but I do not currently know where it is. I am at least somewhat aware of the book's defects. (You are quoting from the review that can be accessed by the link that I provided.) However, I am not sure that there is a Stonewall book that is completely appropriate for an ~800 player. Certainly, it makes sense to look at other sources, but they may have a different target audience. It seems to me to be plausible that the Stonewall-related Stewart material may be about right for a near-beginner intending to use the Stonewall in an upcoming tournament.

Avatar of RussBell
RussBell
Feb 4, 2020
0
#54
kindaspongey wrote:
 

.....I am not sure that there is a Stonewall book that is completely appropriate for an ~800 player. Certainly, it makes sense to look at other sources, but they may have a different target audience. It seems to me to be plausible that the Stonewall-related Stewart material may be about right for a near-beginner intending to use the Stonewall in an upcoming tournament.

I cite the two best books featuring the Stonewall Attack, in my blog article...

The Stonewall Attack...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/stonewall-attack

Either of these books is accessible to a beginner, and worth the money if your goal is to understand how to play the Stonewall Attack.  Either book provides far better treatment of the SA than the superficial treatment given in the Stewart book (which is primarily about the Psychology of chess - with superficial treatment of that topic as well).  Or simply make use of some of the resources whose links I have provided in my blog article on the SA (which are free).

Avatar of manifest_glory
manifest_glory
Feb 4, 2020
0
#55

ummm guys thanks for all the help but it would be great if u included diagrams cuz i don't have a chess board and its kinda hard to visualize thanks

Avatar of kindaspongey
kindaspongey
Feb 4, 2020
0
#56
RussBell wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

… https://web.archive.org/web/20140708105336/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review901.pdf  … I am not sure that there is a Stonewall book that is completely appropriate for an ~800 player. Certainly, it makes sense to look at other sources, but they may have a different target audience. It seems to me to be plausible that the Stonewall-related Stewart material may be about right for a near-beginner intending to use the Stonewall in an upcoming tournament.

I cite the two best books featuring the Stonewall Attack, in my blog article...

The Stonewall Attack...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/stonewall-attack

Either of these books is accessible to a beginner, and worth the money if your goal is to understand how to play the Stonewall Attack.  Either book provides far better treatment of the SA than the superficial treatment given in the Stewart book (which is primarily about the Psychology of chess - with superficial treatment of that topic as well).  Or simply make use of some of the resources whose links I have provided in my blog article on the SA (which are free).

I have seen some of what you have suggested and it did not strike me as very accessible to an ~800 player. I have already agreed with the idea that manifest_glory look at some of the free resources and form an independent opinion. In some cases, online samples are available for other items that one might buy. "Superficial" does not strike me as necessarily bad for an ~800 player. As you are probably aware, there are those who insist that an ~800 player should not attempt to do any learning about specific openings. Perhaps you are also aware that I am not in that camp. I think of myself as not being very far from that point of view. If a book manages to be generally "best", it does not seem likely to me to be best for an ~800 player. Did you ever see the NM Dan Heisman 2004 discussion about learning 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 d6 8 c3 0-0 9 h3 ? In a nutshell:

"... studying lots of opening sequences that go as deep as the one including 9.h3 is likely to get diminishing returns on your study time until you are at least an intermediate player. …"

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626225952/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman37.pdf

Another quote (not specifically about openings) strikes me as, nevertheless, potentially relevant here:

"... Just because a book contains lots of information that you don’t know, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it will be extremely helpful in making you better at this point in your chess development. ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2001)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626180930/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman06.pdf

Avatar of kindaspongey
kindaspongey
Feb 4, 2020
0
#57
MangoMankey wrote:
[]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 that the move 5...Bd7 is now dubious and that other moves that directly go for the attack on d4, like 5...Qb6, 5...Nh6, or 5...Nge7, is stronger. 

All the rest of the "hot garbage" aside, I actually want to know why is Bd7 "dubious", is there a (well-known) path to advantage for white?

I am especially surprised since as far as I can tell, Bd7 is basically as popular as Qb6.



Avatar of RussBell
RussBell
Feb 4, 2020
0
#58
manifest_glory wrote:

ummm guys thanks for all the help but it would be great if u included diagrams cuz i don't have a chess board and its kinda hard to visualize thanks

Try using the Chess.com analysis board...

https://www.chess.com/analysis

Avatar of kindaspongey
kindaspongey
Feb 4, 2020
0
#59
ThrillerFan wrote:

… The problem with 5...Bd7 is it does nothing immediately and is too slow.  It allows White to fully consolidate, put the King to safety, and still prevent Black's attack.

 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7?!

  • 5...Qb6 6.a3 is best becuase now if 6.Be2, then 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6 and now
    • 8.O-O Nf5 and the pawn drops as after 9.Be3, this is one case where Black can safely take the b2-pawn with advantage

ThrillerFan wrote:  

  • ...
    • ...
    • 8.Nc3 Nf5 9.Na4 Qa5+ (The fact that this is check makes all the difference) 10.Bd2 Bb4 11.Bc3 b5 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Nxc3 (cannot take back with the pawn due to the Knight hanging) 13...b4 14.axb4 Qxb4 with a slight advantage for Black.  His pieces are more active

ThrillerFan wrote:  

  • ...
  • 5...Nge7 and 5...Nh6 are also better than 5...Bd7 because they also immediately go for the attack on d4.

6.Be2! and now 6...Nge7 is too slow.  After 7.O-O!, going for the attack on d4 is too slow, too little, too late!  7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Nc3! Qb6 10.Na4! and the fact that 10...Qa5 is no longer check makes all the difference and White maintains the advantage.

ThrillerFan wrote:  The move ...Bd7 should be held off until later in the opening.  By attacking d4 immediately, White has no time to develop and castle, and that is why 6.a3 Nh6 7.b4 is played instead, to be able to get the Bishop to b2 to guard d4, but that takes time and White can't castle any time soon.  After 7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Bb2, Black has the choice of 9...Bd7 (preventing 10.Bd3), then 10.g4 is necessary, spending more time not castling,

ThrillerFan wrote:  while 9...Be7, making 10.g4 bad due to 10...Nh4, White should bring the Bishop to its most active square, 10.Bd3.

ThrillerFan wrote:  The early ...f6 is also mentioned.  After 5...Bd7?! 6.Be2! f6, White should ignore it and castle!  7.O-O! fxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.fxe5 Qc7 and now White can play the materialistic and positional 10.f4, which is fine, but stronger is 10.c4 and if Black takes the pawn on e5 via 10...Qxe5, White gets loads of play for the pawn and Black is underdeveloped.  For example, 11.Bh5+ g6 12.Bf3 O-O-O 13.Re1 with a huge initiative.

ThrillerFan wrote:  If someone twisted my arm and pointed a gun to my head to play 5...Bd7, I would have to grit my teeth and play the 6...f6 line, but I would not grab the e-pawn after 10.c4 (see [above]).

[The above] also shows why I see the Qb6 idea as useless after 5...Bd7?! 6.Be2!, and why 6.Be2 is useless for White against 5...Qb6.

It should also be mentioned that delaying cxd4 too long for Black, preventing Nb1-c3-a4 fails eventually to dxc5 and b4 where taking on f2 is a tactical blunder.

I know it all looks the same, but the timing of Black's moves drastically changes White's situation.  Immediately pressuring d4 makes trying to castle fast a move too slow for White.  After you have forced White to change course with a3, b4, and Bb2 to guard d4, and the B on f1 is still at home (i.e. Move 9), now Black can take the time to play Bd7 since now it makes 10.Be2 h5 very passive for White, 10.Bd3 impossible because it drops a pawn, and 10.g4! Nh6 11.h3 f6, immediately pressuring e5, forces White to spend more time on things outside of king safety.

ThrillerFan wrote:  I should add that White's Knight is also still on b1, not c3, so that is 3 factors that delaying Bd7 has done for Black.

The N is still on b1, the Bishop is still on f1, and the King is not safe.  All 3 are resolved by move 10 after 5...Bd7.

Avatar of Gibbilo
Gibbilo
Feb 4, 2020
0
#60
Tbh I didn’t think thrillerfans original post was antagonistic to op....just the stonewall. Which is fine imo. That’s the point of a forum. kind of surprised the amount of people here who thought otherwise. Thin skin?