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How bad is the Halloween Gambit?
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Your asking the wrong questions.
The real questions you should be asking is who on earth plays 3.Nc3 in such position?
You can just smell the stench from that move all the way back in Wales.
Where are the Bishop moves at baby?
Than by a random miracle Black side player decided to copy with 3..Nf6?
Good Lord!
White Blunders with Nc3 instead of Bishop move.
Black counter Blunders with Nf6 instead of Bishop move.
How do you plan on even reaching Halloween Gambit?
#3 3. Nc3 Three Knights is a perfectly acceptable opening choice and is solid according to engines, grandmasters, and players alike.
3… Nf6 is the main move and best, as bishop moves are not as good:
3… Bb4 allows 4. Nd5 which gives White a better position since they either get to play 5. Nxb4 Nxb4 6. Nxe5 or just get their knight on a good square if the bishop retreats.
3… Bc5 allows 4. Nxe5! Nxe5 5. d4 with advantage to White.
3… Nf6 is the main move and best, as bishop moves are not as good:
3… Bb4 allows 4. Nd5 which gives White a better position since they either get to play 5. Nxb4 Nxb4 6. Nxe5 or just get their knight on a good square if the bishop retreats.
3… Bc5 allows 4. Nxe5! Nxe5 5. d4 with advantage to White.
Chesspro1334 wrote:
#3 3. Nc3 Three Knights is a perfectly acceptable opening choice and is solid according to engines, grandmasters, and players alike.
3… Nf6 is the main move and best, as bishop moves are not as good:
3… Bb4 allows 4. Nd5 which gives White a better position since they either get to play 5. Nxb4 Nxb4 6. Nxe5 or just get their knight on a good square if the bishop retreats.
3… Bc5 allows 4. Nxe5! Nxe5 5. d4 with advantage to White.
3… Nf6 is the main move and best, as bishop moves are not as good:
3… Bb4 allows 4. Nd5 which gives White a better position since they either get to play 5. Nxb4 Nxb4 6. Nxe5 or just get their knight on a good square if the bishop retreats.
3… Bc5 allows 4. Nxe5! Nxe5 5. d4 with advantage to White.
Perfectly Acceptable?
More like Dubiously Acceptable!
The world knows 3.Bb5 is the best move.
If 3.Bb5 is the best, The move 3.Nc3 is an error.
Surely, you have never talked to Ruy Lopez Grandmasters or they would of told you 3.Nc3 is a sacrilege.
#5
Moves that are not the best can be acceptable due to a number of factors, including psychological impact, strengths and weaknesses, surprise value, etc. Not everyone has to play 100% perfect moves.
Also, have you ever talked to Ruy Lopez Grandmasters?
Moves that are not the best can be acceptable due to a number of factors, including psychological impact, strengths and weaknesses, surprise value, etc. Not everyone has to play 100% perfect moves.
Also, have you ever talked to Ruy Lopez Grandmasters?
Also, against 3. Bb5 your choice seems to be 3… Bc5 as shown by your games. The world knows that 3… Nf6 and 3… a6 are better, so by your logic you are willingly committing errors all the time.
Try it in a correspondence game and get back to me. A lot of unsound stuff works in blitz and OTB.
Objectively losing by force after (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nxe5?) Nxe5 5.d4 Ng6 6.e5 Ng8 7.Bc4 c6! but the positions are complex, and certain accuracy by Black is needed.
Ironically, the reverse Halloween (a full tempo down) is totally playable!
Emily wrote:
newbie4711 wrote:
Can someone tell me the best option against the Halloween Gambit? I don't want to have to watch hours of videos to see any opening traps. The refutation is enough for me.
First off, there will be much theory to learn if you want to "refute" it even though the engine says it's winning for black, because white actually has more than one sharp line to play in the Halloween Gambit, but there are many ways to "decline" it and irritate your opponent by not playing into the gambit they want. Here's one line you can do to get a relatively normal position. The evaluation is equal, but you don't have to learn anything new. You basically give back the piece at your own terms to calm the position.
Lol, that's an interesting line. Actually it is a Two Knights with reversed colors.
Emily wrote:
newbie4711 wrote:
Can someone tell me the best option against the Halloween Gambit? I don't want to have to watch hours of videos to see any opening traps. The refutation is enough for me.
First off, there will be much theory to learn if you want to "refute" it even though the engine says it's winning for black, because white actually has more than one sharp line to play in the Halloween Gambit, but there are many ways to "decline" it and irritate your opponent by not playing into the gambit they want. Here's one line you can do to get a relatively normal position. The evaluation is equal, but you don't have to learn anything new. You basically give back the piece at your own terms to calm the position.
You can improve on that a bit.
Black is slightly better, and can play at no risk. The Be5 is very nicely placed, and White's kingside is a bit weakened.
Mazetoskylo schreef:
Objectively losing by force after (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nxe5?) Nxe5 5.d4 Ng6 6.e5 Ng8 7.Bc4 c6! but the positions are complex, and certain accuracy by Black is needed.
I think a "certain accurancy" is putting it mildly.
After 7. .. c6 White mostly played 8.Qf3 (8.Qe2 is also possible)
8. Qf3
Black can answer f6 or d5 :
A: 8. .. f6 !?
seems logical, looking for breathing space, but after 9.0-0 d5?! (Black cannot take with the f- pawn on e5 due to the matt on f7, but 9. .. dxe5! seems to be the best move) 10.exd6 Bxd6 11.Ne4 N8e7 White has an impressive queen offer with 12.Qxf6 ! gxf6 13.Nxf6+ Kf8 14.Bh6 # Brause-Pfiffigunde, ICS,1997,1-0(14).
Another idea is 9.h4 h5 10.exf6 Nxf6 11.0-0 with long term pressure in Minchev,G-Di Tora,A,HGT2,2004,1-0(50)
B: 8. .. d5 !?
9. exd6
We shall examine 3 continuations :
B1: 9. .. Qf6 ?!
leads to a disaster in Brause-BuffaloJim, ICS,1998, 1-0 (15)
10.Qe2+ Kd8 11.Ne4 Qxd4 12.Bxf7 ( O.A. Brownson has recommended 12.Be3 Qe5 13.0-0-0 “with a strong attack” in Brownson’s Chess Journal, november 1877)
12. .. Nh6? (Bf5 is better following an analysis of A. Torrecillas) 13.Bg5+ Kd7 14.Rd1 Qe5 15.Nc5+
B2: 9. .. Nf6
was recommended by Brownson as “the best defense” against the Halloween, who continues with 10.Qe2+ Kd7 “and Black’s development cannot be retarded”. My opinion is that White still has long time pressure after 11. d5
[ White can also go for the nice trap with 11.Nb5!? Bxd6
(The trap is that after 11...cxb5 ? White has a matt in four 12.Bxb5+ Kxd6 13.Bf4+ Kd5 14.c4+ Kxd4 15.Qe3#)
12.Nxd6 Kxd6 13.Bxf7 (13.Be3 !?) 13...Qe7 14.Bxg6 Qxe2+ 15.Kxe2 hxg6 16.f3 (16.Bf4+ !? ) 16...b5 17.Bf4+ Ke7 18.a4 b4 19.Kf2 Kf7 20.Bd6 a5 21.c4 And with the better pawn structure White can hold his own]
[ 11.Be3 !? is also playable 11...Bxd6 12.O-O-O a6 13.Bxf7 Nf4 White has two pawns for the piece and his King is more safely ]
11. .. Bxd6
(or 11. .. c5 12.Bb5+ Kxd6 13.Bd3 a6 14.Bxg6 hxg6 15.Bf4+ Kd7 16.O-O-O The Black King is not yet safe )
12. dxc6+ bxc6 13.Be3 Kc7 14.O-O-O Re8 15.Qd2 a5 16.Rhe1 Bb4 17.Bd4 Bf5 18.a3 Rxe1 19.Qxe1 with continuous pressure
B3: 9. .. Be6!
was already recommended by Cordel
a) 10.Bxe6 ? fxe6 11.Ne4 Nf6
[or 11. .. Bxd6!? 12.Qb3 Nf6 13.Qxe6+ with 14.Nxd6 winning
after 13. .. Qe7 or 13. .. Ke8, but loosing after 13. .. Be7 ]
12.Qb3 Nxe4 13.Qxe6+ Ne7 14.Qxe4 Qxd6 -+
b) 10.d5 !
This position is winning for Black but if you are not Stockfish then I recommend it because there are enormous practical chances for White. In many cases Black has only one good move.
We follow Sansuk (2122)–Robertgold(1970),GK 2022,1-0 (23):
10. .. Ne5
10... Bxd5 ? 11.Nxd5
11. .. cxd5 12.Bb5+ White wins immediately
11. .. Bxd6 12.Qe2+ N8e7 13.Nxe7 Qxe7 14.Qxe7+ Bxe7 15.O-O +-
11. .. Qxd6 12.Qe2+ Be7 13.Nxe7 Qxe7 14.Bg5 +-
11.Qe2 ( 11.Qh5? Nxc4 12.dxe6 Nxd6 13. 0-0 -+)
11...Nxc4 the situation is equal after
11...cxd5 12.Qxe5 dxc4 13.Bf4 Nf6 14.Nb5 Qa5+ 15.Bd2 Qa4 16.b3 cxb3 17.axb3 Qe4+ 18.Qxe4 Nxe4 19.Nc7+ Kd7 20.Nxa8
12.dxe6 Nxd6 White is winning after
12...Qxd6 ? 13.exf7+ Kxf7 14.Qxc4+
12...fxe6 ? 13.Qxe6+ Be7 14.Qxc4
13.Bf4 Qf6
After 13...Qe7 14.O-O-O White has enough compensation, best line for Black is 14. .. Rd8 15.Rd2 fxe6 16.Rhd1 Nf7 17.Rxd8+ Nxd8 18.Ne4 Nf7 19.Bd6 Qh4 20.g3 Qh6+ 21.Bf4 with continuous pressure
14.Bxd6 ( 14.exf7 ? Kxf7 15.Be5 Qe6 16.0-0-0 -+)
14. .. Bxd6
After 14. .. Qxe6 ? 15.Qxe6+ fxe6 16.Bxf8 Kxf8 17.0-0-0 White is better
15.Ne4 Qe7 ( 15. .. Qe5 16.0-0-0 or 16. exf7 leads to equality. The same for 15. .. Bb4+ 16.c3 Qxe6 17. cxb4 )
16.exf7+ Kxf7 (16. .. Qxf7? 17.Nxd6)
17.Qc4+ Kf8? Finally Black goes wrong. He had to play 17. .. Qe6. After 18.0-0 Bf4+ 19.Qb4 a5 White has nothing anymore for the offered piece.
18.0-0-0 Bf4+ 19.Kb1 Nf6 20.Nxf6 Qxf6 21.Qb4+ Kf7 22.Rd7+ Kg6 23. Qe4+ Kh6 Black resigned
Consider you are not a computer, you have to find the right moves over the board in a limited time.
Chesspro1334 wrote:
#5
Moves that are not the best can be acceptable due to a number of factors, including psychological impact, strengths and weaknesses, surprise value, etc. Not everyone has to play 100% perfect moves.
Also, have you ever talked to Ruy Lopez Grandmasters?
Moves that are not the best can be acceptable due to a number of factors, including psychological impact, strengths and weaknesses, surprise value, etc. Not everyone has to play 100% perfect moves.
Also, have you ever talked to Ruy Lopez Grandmasters?
You seem to be confusing my argument.
I am not saying 3.Nc3 is unplayable.
I am also not saying players have to play perfect moves.
My argument is what are the odds of players actually playing the line?
Most players would say the best move is 3. Bb5.
This means players are more likely to play 3. Bb5 vs. 3. Nc3
If you faced 100 players, how many players would play 3. Bb5 or 3. Bc4 instead of 3. Nc3?
5 out of 100?
10 out of 100?
BECAUSE people think 3.Bb5 or 3.Bc4 is better
The 3. Nc3 line is less likely to be seen.
The other lines may be objectively better, but even if they wasn’t considered better. They would still be considered more popular which reduces the chances of even seeing the Halloween Gambit line. Are you going to spend months studying how to play or refute the Halloween Gambit only to face it or play it dozen times per year?
Compadre_J wrote:
You seem to be confusing my argument.
I am not saying 3.Nc3 is unplayable.
I am also not saying players have to play perfect moves.
My argument is what are the odds of players actually playing the line?
Most players would say the best move is 3. Bb5.
This means players are more likely to play 3. Bb5 vs. 3. Nc3
If you faced 100 players, how many players would play 3. Bb5 or 3. Bc4 instead of 3. Nc3?
5 out of 100?
10 out of 100?
I think you might get 1...someone either stoned or crazy with 3 Bb5.
1e4 e5 2 nf3 nf6 and now you insist on 3 Bb5.
What does that even do? 3..nxe4 4 d3 nc5.
What if you dont know 4 ...Nc5 as black....still I dont see what could be so great with 3 Bb5.
Tbh no one plays this gambit and rarely people will play it in a real game.
AMZboiepic3356 schreef:
Tbh no one plays this gambit and rarely people will play it in a real game.
I am no one.
nighteyes1234 wrote:
Compadre_J wrote:
You seem to be confusing my argument.
I am not saying 3.Nc3 is unplayable.
I am also not saying players have to play perfect moves.
My argument is what are the odds of players actually playing the line?
Most players would say the best move is 3. Bb5.
This means players are more likely to play 3. Bb5 vs. 3. Nc3
If you faced 100 players, how many players would play 3. Bb5 or 3. Bc4 instead of 3. Nc3?
5 out of 100?
10 out of 100?
I think you might get 1...someone either stoned or crazy with 3 Bb5.
1e4 e5 2 nf3 nf6 and now you insist on 3 Bb5.
What does that even do? 3..nxe4 4 d3 nc5.
What if you dont know 4 ...Nc5 as black....still I dont see what could be so great with 3 Bb5.
Black isn’t playing 2...Nf6.
Black is playing 2...Nc6 defending the E5 pawn.
If Black plays 2...Nf6, White will play 3. Nxe5
They wouldn’t play 3. Bb5.
The move 3. Bb5 is played after 2...Nc6 to pressure the Knight which is defending the E5 pawn.
Can someone tell me the best option against the Halloween Gambit? I don't want to have to watch hours of videos to see any opening traps. The refutation is enough for me.