How do I counter 1.e4 e6

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Solmyr1234

play the Milner Barry gambit, and sac your horse on f7. sure worked on me...

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/for-beginners/help-from-exp-ed-french-defense-players

here. non of the experts here knew what to answer this. one gave the computer's answer. if your opponent found the computer's answer, please press the "report" button and choose "cheet". Thank you!

ninjaswat
EKAFC wrote:
AlbAmchess wrote:

I like the monte-carlo variation: I don’t actually play e4 but if I ever played against the French I would play e4 e6 d4 d5 exd5 exd5 c4 which is basically a queen’s gambit with both e-pawns removed.

Boring. I play Nc3. It gives such a double-edged game. I still don't understand how anyone likes a boring exchange variation.

Simple, no theory (really) and you can just outplay your opponent. In a rapid game, I would choose the exchange. Why? Not enough time to play for a draw at my level; maybe at @ThrillerFan's but not mine, yet enough time for me to test my skills. That's how I will improve, and it's easier than going into the home court of the French. People do a similar thing against the Benoni...

jmpchess12
ThrillerFan wrote:
jmpchess12 wrote:
EKAFC wrote:
Andrei-Cristian2009 wrote:

The most simplest idea is e4 e6 d4 d5 exd5 exd5 and then the position is very simple(btw, if he doesn't play d5, you got a powerful center, it is pretty simple too).

This is what you play when you like Boring positions.

 

I highly recommend you try to learn the Classical Variation with Nc3. As a French player, no one plays this at your level. Many French players don't study this because they never face it. Use lichess opening explorer. They will show you the most played moves at every rating level and play a few causal games or play against a computer just to get a foundation. Analyze with a computer and create a lichess study on the different variations

 

While 3.Nc3 is considered the best move the logic here is very wrong. I exclusively play 1.e6 against 1.e4. Looking at my opening tree since I started playing on chess.com I have 173 games in the advanced, 101 games in the exchange, 62 games in the Classical and 25 games in the Tarrasch. This is over a 5 month period and roughly 400 point range (1500-1900) although I spent most of my time in the 1700s during that time period. 

Also French players very much do study 3.Nc3, probably more than anything else since it is where the most critical lines at the master level are played. 

3.Nc3 is considered the strongest reply to the French, but it comes with a lot of complications and a mountain of theory as black can respond in multiple ways with 3.Bb4 (Winawer) 3. Nf6 (Classical) and 3. dxe4 (Rubinstein). By contrast 3.e5 is almost as challenging with a much more compact set of ideas, and 3. exd5 is a less ambitious move that may have a psychological advantage especially at the intermediate level as many French players dislike the exchange. 3.Nd2 is also a well respected variation, but at least to me doesn't stand out in any way as something to recommend.

 

The Exchange has no psychological advantage for White.  Myself, an amateur, played in the Washington Chess Congress last weekend (U2200 Section).  Three of my 7 games were Frenches:

 

Round 1 - White - Steinitz Variation - 1-0

Round 2 - Black - Exchange Variation - 0-1

Round 4 - Black - Exchange McCutchen* - 0-1

 

* The Exchange McCutchen arose via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4 Bb4 5.exd5 Qxd5 (5...exd5? 6.Qf3 advantage White!  This is the only case where ...Qxd5 must be played - it is an option in the open Tarrasch - 3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5), and in all other cases, the pawn should recapture.

 

As a French player for over 25 years, let me give you a hint.  French players are not annoyed by the Exchange variation!  The few that are usually quit playing the French very quickly!  Otherwise, the Exchange is the easiest line in the world to defend.  White gets nothing!  Nada!  Zilch!  Since 2014, when I adopted the line of the Exchange that I play today, I have faced the pure Exchange French (Not the Open Tarrasch or Exchange McCutchen) roughly 50 times in over the board play.  I have lost once in severe time trouble in a G/30 event from a winning position, and so it was the clock, nit the position out of the opening that killed me.  Sure, roughly 15 to 20 of those 50ish games were draws, but no wins for White outside the one fast time control game.

 

The Exchange CANNOT be recommended for "psychological" reasons.  French players foam at the mouth in joy when White does something as stupid as 3.exd5??.  Half the point is already ours, and we'll fight you for the other half!

 

I respect your opinion as a long term expert and veteran French defense player, but find your conclusion is biased by your own experience. 

The exchange impressively has a negative score for white AT THE MASTER LEVEL. Given the position is equal with a very very slim 1 tempe advantage to white I conclude that this is either weaker players trying to draw a higher rated player, or giving black an equal position in which they have more experience is a bad idea. 

I know this and I'm still annoyed by the exchange. Not because it's "bad" for black, but because I fell in love with the advanced pawn game. I know other French defense players at my level that feel the same. Maybe that thinking will change as I ascend the chess ranks and I stop winning a ton in the Winawer (my best scoring black opening that is not my opponent playing something insane), but for right now yes the exchange does annoy me. 

 

I still would generally recommend 3. e5. Objectively stronger than 3.exd5 without the expensive theory cost of 3.Nc3. 

EKAFC
Solmyr1234 wrote:

play the Milner Barry gambit, and sac your horse on f7. sure worked on me...

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/for-beginners/help-from-exp-ed-french-defense-players

here. non of the experts here knew what to answer this. one gave the computer's answer. if your opponent found the computer's answer, please press the "report" button and choose "cheet". Thank you!

As a French player, I don't play Qb6 but the Milner Barry Gambit is lethal. Most players don't know what to do against it and take the extra pawn and you have a serious initiative

ThrillerFan
jmpchess12 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
jmpchess12 wrote:
EKAFC wrote:
Andrei-Cristian2009 wrote:

The most simplest idea is e4 e6 d4 d5 exd5 exd5 and then the position is very simple(btw, if he doesn't play d5, you got a powerful center, it is pretty simple too).

This is what you play when you like Boring positions.

 

I highly recommend you try to learn the Classical Variation with Nc3. As a French player, no one plays this at your level. Many French players don't study this because they never face it. Use lichess opening explorer. They will show you the most played moves at every rating level and play a few causal games or play against a computer just to get a foundation. Analyze with a computer and create a lichess study on the different variations

 

While 3.Nc3 is considered the best move the logic here is very wrong. I exclusively play 1.e6 against 1.e4. Looking at my opening tree since I started playing on chess.com I have 173 games in the advanced, 101 games in the exchange, 62 games in the Classical and 25 games in the Tarrasch. This is over a 5 month period and roughly 400 point range (1500-1900) although I spent most of my time in the 1700s during that time period. 

Also French players very much do study 3.Nc3, probably more than anything else since it is where the most critical lines at the master level are played. 

3.Nc3 is considered the strongest reply to the French, but it comes with a lot of complications and a mountain of theory as black can respond in multiple ways with 3.Bb4 (Winawer) 3. Nf6 (Classical) and 3. dxe4 (Rubinstein). By contrast 3.e5 is almost as challenging with a much more compact set of ideas, and 3. exd5 is a less ambitious move that may have a psychological advantage especially at the intermediate level as many French players dislike the exchange. 3.Nd2 is also a well respected variation, but at least to me doesn't stand out in any way as something to recommend.

 

The Exchange has no psychological advantage for White.  Myself, an amateur, played in the Washington Chess Congress last weekend (U2200 Section).  Three of my 7 games were Frenches:

 

Round 1 - White - Steinitz Variation - 1-0

Round 2 - Black - Exchange Variation - 0-1

Round 4 - Black - Exchange McCutchen* - 0-1

 

* The Exchange McCutchen arose via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4 Bb4 5.exd5 Qxd5 (5...exd5? 6.Qf3 advantage White!  This is the only case where ...Qxd5 must be played - it is an option in the open Tarrasch - 3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5), and in all other cases, the pawn should recapture.

 

As a French player for over 25 years, let me give you a hint.  French players are not annoyed by the Exchange variation!  The few that are usually quit playing the French very quickly!  Otherwise, the Exchange is the easiest line in the world to defend.  White gets nothing!  Nada!  Zilch!  Since 2014, when I adopted the line of the Exchange that I play today, I have faced the pure Exchange French (Not the Open Tarrasch or Exchange McCutchen) roughly 50 times in over the board play.  I have lost once in severe time trouble in a G/30 event from a winning position, and so it was the clock, nit the position out of the opening that killed me.  Sure, roughly 15 to 20 of those 50ish games were draws, but no wins for White outside the one fast time control game.

 

The Exchange CANNOT be recommended for "psychological" reasons.  French players foam at the mouth in joy when White does something as stupid as 3.exd5??.  Half the point is already ours, and we'll fight you for the other half!

 

I respect your opinion as a long term expert and veteran French defense player, but find your conclusion is biased by your own experience. 

The exchange impressively has a negative score for white AT THE MASTER LEVEL. Given the position is equal with a very very slim 1 tempe advantage to white I conclude that this is either weaker players trying to draw a higher rated player, or giving black an equal position in which they have more experience is a bad idea. 

I know this and I'm still annoyed by the exchange. Not because it's "bad" for black, but because I fell in love with the advanced pawn game. I know other French defense players at my level that feel the same. Maybe that thinking will change as I ascend the chess ranks and I stop winning a ton in the Winawer (my best scoring black opening that is not my opponent playing something insane), but for right now yes the exchange does annoy me. 

 

I still would generally recommend 3. e5. Objectively stronger than 3.exd5 without the expensive theory cost of 3.Nc3. 

 

Actually, in some ways, the burden is on White in the Exchange French.

Let me explain:

 

There are SOME openings, not all, where Black can only mimic so far, and then to copy White would actually be a blunder.  I do not recall the exact White reply because I do not play this line from either side, but one prime example is in the Four Knights Game:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bb5 Bb4 5.O-O O-O 6.d3 d6 7.Bg5 and now 7...Bg4?? is actually a blunder.  Do not ask me why, I do not recall the reason behind it, but it has got something to do with the Queen's Knight, as the correct reply for Black is 7...Bxc3 first.  But I am not an avid Four Knights player like I am a French guru.

 

However, in the exchange French, you can mimic White, especially if he plays the "Main" (best?) line, and the burden is actually on White!

 

 

 

After the moves in the diagram, the burden is actually on White.  The fact that White scores a negative score could actually have something to do with this.

 

  • If White moves one of the Rooks to e1, Black can do the same on e8.  Then Black can completely prevent White from creating a battery on the e-file.  Black will maintain the standoff on the e-file if White never moves his e1-Rook.  If he lifts it, Black trades where White cannot recapture with the other Rook.  If White trades on e8, Black gains a tempo.  If he re-loads with Re1, You have not tricked Black into having to "commit" first, he can take you, and your Knight goes backwards, in essence LOSING a tempo rather than gaining one!  So Rae1 or Rfe1 doesn't solve White's ultimate problem.
  • If White plays 11.h3 or 11.Rae1 Rae8 12.h3, then Black can simply play 12...Bh5 followed by 13...Bg6, and if 13.g4, even better for Black.  If White trades on g6, either with his Bishop or Knight, you have ...hxg6 with asymmetry in the position, and with White's g3-square weakened, and so he cannot contest your battery on the h2-b8 diagonal like you were able to contest the battery on the b1-h7 diagonal.  Often times, this leads to White getting a Knight for his Dark-Squared Bishop, and Black's Dark-Squared Bishop winds up the best piece often times in a 2 Knights vs Bishop and Knight ending, Black having the Dark-Squared Bishop, and it winds up slightly better for Black!
  • If White advances any pawn on the Queenside, he commits first, and Black can react accordingly, which may or may not entail advancing pawns on the Queenside himself.  If could also involve getting a Knight to a particular square, like if White plays b4, then c4 becomes a juicy outpost.
  • If White tries to "pass" with a move like Kh1, then the King is one square further from the center if a trade-down were to occur (very common on the e-file in the exchange French) and Black could have a slight edge as he will likely grab the 4th rank to White only getting the third with the Kings in an endgame.  Again, slight edge for Black.

 

The problem is that ultimately, there is no tactical trick for White if Black continues to mimic, and so Black can copy White's "Ideal setup" if he uses it, and it results in White having to show his hand first.  It is almost like being in Mutual (or Reciprocal) Zugzwang, but where the side to move is SLIGHTLY worse rather than outright losing, like in your typical mutual zugzwang positions, such as WKd5, WPe4, BKf4, BPe5 - Whichever side is to move loses.

 

And so It is usually White playing catch-up after having to commit first, and that playing catchup is why White's numbers look like those typically scored by Black in most openings!

 

 

This is why you see players trying to drift away from the "main lines" in the Exchange French, but they entail taking far more risks, like if White tries for the early Queen Check on e2, sure it forces Black into something like ...Be7 or ...Be6 or offering a Queen trade, but if Black doesn't offer the Queen trade, once Black castles, the Queen can be highly exposed on e2 and start losing tempi to the Black Rooks since the e-file is the one open file on the board.  That's begging for the Queen to get harassed.

 

So the exchange really is more of a problem than people want to make it out to be.  White only gets a slight advantage in symmetrical lines where Black cannot continue to mimic for tactical reasons, like the Four Knights Game.  In lines where Black can safely mimic every non-committal move by White, like the Exchange French, the burden is actually on White, not Black!

MyNameIsNotBuddy
EKAFC wrote:
Solmyr1234 wrote:

play the Milner Barry gambit, and sac your horse on f7. sure worked on me...

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/for-beginners/help-from-exp-ed-french-defense-players

here. non of the experts here knew what to answer this. one gave the computer's answer. if your opponent found the computer's answer, please press the "report" button and choose "cheet". Thank you!

As a French player, I don't play Qb6 but the Milner Barry Gambit is lethal. Most players don't know what to do against it and take the extra pawn and you have a serious initiative

I use it whenever I can, and no one's ever fallen for it. 

ThrillerFan
MyNameIsNotBuddy wrote:
EKAFC wrote:
Solmyr1234 wrote:

play the Milner Barry gambit, and sac your horse on f7. sure worked on me...

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/for-beginners/help-from-exp-ed-french-defense-players

here. non of the experts here knew what to answer this. one gave the computer's answer. if your opponent found the computer's answer, please press the "report" button and choose "cheet". Thank you!

As a French player, I don't play Qb6 but the Milner Barry Gambit is lethal. Most players don't know what to do against it and take the extra pawn and you have a serious initiative

I use it whenever I can, and no one's ever fallen for it. 

 

Actually, the Milner-Barry Gambit isn't hard to defend at all.  It can also be declined even!  See the analysis in the diagram.

 

 



MyNameIsNotBuddy


ThrillerFan wrote:
MyNameIsNotBuddy wrote:
EKAFC wrote:
Solmyr1234 wrote:

play the Milner Barry gambit, and sac your horse on f7. sure worked on me...

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/for-beginners/help-from-exp-ed-french-defense-players

here. non of the experts here knew what to answer this. one gave the computer's answer. if your opponent found the computer's answer, please press the "report" button and choose "cheet". Thank you!

As a French player, I don't play Qb6 but the Milner Barry Gambit is lethal. Most players don't know what to do against it and take the extra pawn and you have a serious initiative

I use it whenever I can, and no one's ever fallen for it. 

 

Actually, the Milner-Barry Gambit isn't hard to defend at all.  It can also be declined even!  See the analysis in the diagram.

 

 



 

RETURNOFTHELAGGER
ninjaswat wrote:
EKAFC wrote:
AlbAmchess wrote:

I like the monte-carlo variation: I don’t actually play e4 but if I ever played against the French I would play e4 e6 d4 d5 exd5 exd5 c4 which is basically a queen’s gambit with both e-pawns removed.

Boring. I play Nc3. It gives such a double-edged game. I still don't understand how anyone likes a boring exchange variation.

Simple, no theory (really) and you can just outplay your opponent. In a rapid game, I would choose the exchange. Why? Not enough time to play for a draw at my level; maybe at @ThrillerFan's but not mine, yet enough time for me to test my skills. That's how I will improve, and it's easier than going into the home court of the French. People do a similar thing against the Benoni...

Very much agree with the sentiment. The exchange French (or slav, etc.) Is no draw if white wants to play; after all, he is a tempo up in a symmetrical position. I'm only 2200, but at least at my level I've won and lost both sides of the Monte Carlo variation at g40+ time controls.

EKAFC
RETURNOFTHELAGGER wrote:
ninjaswat wrote:

Very much agree with the sentiment. The exchange French (or slav, etc.) Is no draw if white wants to play; after all, he is a tempo up in a symmetrical position. I'm only 2200, but at least at my level I've won and lost both sides of the Monte Carlo variation at g40+ time controls.

The only Exchange Variation I'm fine with is the Exchange Queen's Gambit Declined. But then again, I like playing a Semi-Slav more but at least I avoid an Exchange Slav. 

Botskyvinnik
@ThrillerFan. How about 9.Nbd2 in the Milner-Barry?

White seems to get adequate attacking chances following: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bd7 8. O-O Nxd4 9. Nbd2 Bc5 10. b4 Nxf3+ 11. Qxf3 Bd4 12. Qg3 Bxa1 13. Qxg7 Bxe5 14. Qxe5 f6 15. Qh5+ Kf8 16. Nb3

Even with positional play by black, white doesn’t seem so bad off: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bd7 8. O-O Nxd4 9. Nbd2 Ne7 10. Nxd4 Qxd4 11. Nf3 Qb6 12. Be3 Qd8 13. Rc1 Nc6 14. a3 Be7 15. b4 a6 16. Re1
leNnard_Carlsen

Its called the French Defense and there are many many many ways to play against it. If you are a beginner then I would recommend you play the Exchange Variation

 

You will have a pretty simple middle game and there are not really any risks involved. As already mentioned if you feel more comfortable with the opening you can try out the Monte Carlo Variation, which makes the position a little more interesting!

 

 

 

NikkiLikeChikki
The Orthoschnapp gambit. Is it slightly dubious? Yes. Is it ever played by GMs? No. Is it fun? Yes. Does it win more than it loses in non-master games? Yes.

Win!

Videos on YouTube.
ThrillerFan
MikeyPhD wrote:
@ThrillerFan. How about 9.Nbd2 in the Milner-Barry?

White seems to get adequate attacking chances following: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bd7 8. O-O Nxd4 9. Nbd2 Bc5 10. b4 Nxf3+ 11. Qxf3 Bd4 12. Qg3 Bxa1 13. Qxg7 Bxe5 14. Qxe5 f6 15. Qh5+ Kf8 16. Nb3

Even with positional play by black, white doesn’t seem so bad off: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bd7 8. O-O Nxd4 9. Nbd2 Ne7 10. Nxd4 Qxd4 11. Nf3 Qb6 12. Be3 Qd8 13. Rc1 Nc6 14. a3 Be7 15. b4 a6 16. Re1

 

See the note to move 9 in post 28.  As mentioned at the end of it, Black has very simple equality if he wishes to avoid the complications of 9...Bc5 by trading on f3 immediately and following up with 10...Bb5.

EKAFC
leNnard_Carlsen wrote:

Its called the French Defense and there are many many many ways to play against it. If you are a beginner then I would recommend you play the Exchange Variation

 

You will have a pretty simple middle game and there are not really any risks involved. As already mentioned if you feel more comfortable with the opening you can try out the Monte Carlo Variation, which makes the position a little more interesting!

 

 

 

DO NOT PLAY EXCHANGE FRENCH!

It's a very boring opening and you should try a more dynamic or more sound opening like the Advanced, the Tarrasch, or even the Classical if you are up to it. 

 

This advice will keep you more engaged in chess because it will make it more fun. You may lose games, but you will have a much higher ceiling if you learn how to play against the French pawn structure than reaching a symmetrical position. 

 

Also, you will have a lot of fun with the Milner-Barry Gambit as seen in this pgn

 

 

Again, you should analyze this yourself with an engine or look on Youtube. Jonathon Schrantz has a whole lecture on the Milner Barry

ChessLebaneseSalah

Theres 3 types of people in this world. First type is Those who play the Nc3, Nd2 or advance french and go for normal complex positions, second type is those who play exchange french all their life not to learn other theory, and the 3rd type is those who will play all sorts of gambits and weird lines against the french (Wing gambit, orthoschnapp, Bd3 french, etc...).

You decide which one you want. Btw people who play the Milner-Barry gambit are in the first category, its a gambit but not weird enough to be placed in the 3rd

NikkiLikeChikki
The computer says -1.1 but if you look at the games played on that other web site for players rated 1600-2500, the Orthoschnapp scores well over 50% in the main line and there are several only-moves that black has to find in order not to get crushed.

In other words, it scores BETTER than all of the traditional white responses to e6. I don’t know about you all, but for me playing against the French is like watching my nails dry. If I can make it fun, open, surprise my opponent, and still increase the odds of winning? I’ll so do that every time.
MyNameIsNotBuddy
EKAFC wrote:
leNnard_Carlsen wrote:

Its called the French Defense and there are many many many ways to play against it. If you are a beginner then I would recommend you play the Exchange Variation

 

You will have a pretty simple middle game and there are not really any risks involved. As already mentioned if you feel more comfortable with the opening you can try out the Monte Carlo Variation, which makes the position a little more interesting!

 

 

 

DO NOT PLAY EXCHANGE FRENCH!

It's a very boring opening and you should try a more dynamic or more sound opening like the Advanced, the Tarrasch, or even the Classical if you are up to it. 

 

This advice will keep you more engaged in chess because it will make it more fun. You may lose games, but you will have a much higher ceiling if you learn how to play against the French pawn structure than reaching a symmetrical position. 

 

Also, you will have a lot of fun with the Milner-Barry Gambit as seen in this pgn

 

 

Again, you should analyze this yourself with an engine or look on Youtube. Jonathon Schrantz has a whole lecture on the Milner Barry

Nothing is wrong with the exchange French. It's only really going to be "boring" if you can't find any dynamics, which would be your own problem. And "boring" is subjective. 

NikkiLikeChikki

@mynameisnotbuddy I used to play the exchange just because I knew it annoyed French players. They spend forever memorizing lines (because the French player is the ultimate theory nerd), and you go and ruin everything by playing the exchange. It made me happy because the French is the second most boring opening to play against.

mpaetz

     I've always played the French. I used to think the advance variation was a win for black (and I did win most of the time) With higher-rated players it's more difficult but still equal. It's a common line for white among club players because the theory is easy to grasp.

     The exchange holds no terrors for habitual French players, and if white wants to play for a win they face the usual difficulties of creating weaknesses in their own position by trying to create attacking chances in an even position.

     I personally find the Tarrasch most vexing but after a 20+ year hiatus from chess (and taking it less seriously after returning following retirement) my rating plummeted to the 1750-1850 range and as the Tarrasch seems to be chosen primarily by higher-rated players I just use one of the drawish lines there.

     Undoubtedly the most serious try for an advantage is 3.Nc3, but it is the line with the most theory attached. The classical system is easier to understand but the Winawer is a maze of different systems ranging from stubborn dug-in defense to sacrificial all-out counterattack. Probably not the most practical choice for a casual player--witness Fischer's crushing defeat in his pet Winawer line when the much-lower rated Kovacevic pulled out an obscure 30-year old Alatortsev line.

     Your best practical choice is to use something unusual, such as the King's Knight variation, the wing gambit, the King's Indian Attack, etc. You will catch some French players off-guard and most of the rest won't know anymore theory than you do.