How do you attack the Philidor?

  • #1

     

     

     

     

     

     


    Do you prefer d4, the most common reply against 2. ... d6 (according to chess.com's game explorer), playing like his royal Morphyness in one of the most instructive and exciting games ever played (http://www.chess.com/article/view/the-best-chess-game-ever-played)?

    Or is 3. Bc4 your weapon of choice, keeping an embarrassing Legal's mate as a possibility (http://blog.chess.com/ZacWilson/checkmate-flashcards-legals-mate)?

    Other answers are obviously also welcome...

  • #2

    3. ... d4. And if it's only for the reason that many of my opponents continue 4. Bg4, which will give me an edge however it continues.

  • #3
    uhohspaghettio wrote:

    3. d4 all the way baby.

    Conzipe no it is not "a good moment for me to throw in this game again"... that's not the Philidor at all, transposing to a position seen in the Philidor opening is not the Philidor especially since he asked about move 3. You're embarrassing yourself. 


    He gave an entire annotated game explaining his attacking strategy in the mainline...you quoted the next move off the top of the database and added a "baby."

    And HE'S embarrassing HIMSELF?

  • #4
    IMO Black's d6 just invites d4 -- there are other choices, I mean d6 is so 'the opposite of sharp' that you can play anything you wish -- but d4 seems the direct answer in the center. -- Here's Anand playing aggressively against a philidor -- d4 followed by f3 -- and with a nice sac later on to demolish the King's pawn shelter.

    And just for fun, here's a White to move and win puzzle from a Philidor's defense Short vs Morozevitch (the full game is in the pgn)
  • #5

    This is what i usually go for.

    Havent much knowledge about the philidor, tho my understanding (limited that it might be.) is that white can't just trample over it.

    and remember reading some things about that it can result in ugly positions for black, where, he can hold a draw if he manages to survive all the nasty things white can throw at him.

    So my 2 cents are: d4 -> develop -> keep your cool and always know where you keep your towel . =)

  • #6

    3.d4 is my choice, but 3.Bc4 seems to be a matter of taste not necessarily inferior

    Database: Master GamesMy Chess GamesOther Players Games      
    movegameswhite wins / draw / black wins
    3.d4 3,788
    45.3% 28.2% 26.5%
    3.Bc4 471
    44.2% 30.4% 25.5%
  • #7
    Firepower8 wrote:

    after 3. d4 exd4 i would recommend that white should play Qxd4 the main line from this move foward runs

    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Nc3 Nf6

    8.Bg5 Be7 9.O-O-O

    This is what I've played for years and have had some really fun attacking games with it.  I usually leave the R on h1 and push h4-h5-h6 and if black plays h6 I back the bishop up and prepare g4-g5.  King often goes to b1 to reduce exposure (Bg5+ or Qg5+ in some variations).  Also, the N goes to d5 in some lines and the other N, after the h-pawn moves up, can go to h4-f5 with the pawn going to f3 for support of g4 and e4; other times the N has to go to d2 to support e4 then f3 and g4.  This line is simple, straightforward and with some practise, loads of fun.

  • #8
    uhohspaghettio wrote:
    Conzipe wrote:he clearly asked "how do you attack the philidor?" and my game surely shows exactly how I do it! 

    The position I played is the main line of the hanham philidor, so it's obviously of importance. Besides it's very natural for the philidor to arise from different move-orders. It's most commonly arising from the pirc nowadays because of some issues with the standard move-order.


    He wasn't asking for an annotated game, he was asking for what you do in general, ie. as in personal taste, a verbal explanation of what you do. Not to come in and (as you say) "brag" about your game and the fact that you say "again" means you did before also. Let alone the fact that you're not even playing the Philidor. And last I heard, the Hanham variation of the true Philidor is very rare so calling it "obviously of importance" doesn't apply for the true Philidor.

    This is meant to be a community place, not people coming in constantly pimping their games and acting like they're so amazing, as if they were some "example games" that everyone should follow. But even if a gm came in bragging about his game with a ready-made annotated game I do think it would be rude.

    I say what I think, I don't just swallow what I think in order to always be polite, and as can be seen because of that some members here have taken to harassing me.  


    How can you say that your post is more useful than Conzipe's? His post was an interesting and instructive game, you didn't tell the OP how to play against this opening at all (d4 is just a move).

  • #9
    uhohspaghettio wrote:
    Conzipe wrote:he clearly asked "how do you attack the philidor?" and my game surely shows exactly how I do it! 

    The position I played is the main line of the hanham philidor, so it's obviously of importance. Besides it's very natural for the philidor to arise from different move-orders. It's most commonly arising from the pirc nowadays because of some issues with the standard move-order.


    He wasn't asking for an annotated game, he was asking for what you do in general, ie. as in personal taste, a verbal explanation of what you do. Not to come in and (as you say) "brag" about your game and the fact that you say "again" means you did before also. Let alone the fact that you're not even playing the Philidor. And last I heard, the Hanham variation of the true Philidor is very rare so calling it "obviously of importance" doesn't apply for the true Philidor.

    This is meant to be a community place, not people coming in constantly pimping their games and acting like they're so amazing, as if they were some "example games" that everyone should follow. But even if a gm came in bragging about his game with a ready-made annotated game I do think it would be rude.

    I say what I think, I don't just swallow what I think in order to always be polite, and as can be seen because of that some members here have taken to harassing me.  


    -1

  • #10

    Playing the Philidor does not mean black will lose the game but it does mean he may well end up in a cramped position and not have such a good centre as white.

    Follow the main lines d4 or Bc4 but don't be over confident.

  • #11
    Conzipe wrote:

    It is very correct that the hanham variation is 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7.

    However the whole black setup as I explained is often called the hanham philidor which black is most of the time trying to reach, one way or another. There always tends to be arguing about things like this when we are talking about fairly rare opening names. I have heard many players just call it the solid, standard and main line philidor.

    This is actually a pretty good example of how using databases can be rather deceiving. Because the hanham philidor can be reached through many move-orders and therefore it isn't enough to just look at one position and say "this is rarely played"! The hanham philidor is in fact usually reached through a pirc move-order because of some problems with the standard one. Nowadays the standard move-order is pretty much only used if black is looking to reach an antoshin philidor.

    In the exact position you posted from the link both the moves 3...Nd7 and 3...Nf6 are both an attempt of reaching a hanham philidor. However if you look at this position for example: http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=8&n=970&ms=e4.e5.Nf3.d6.d4.Nf6.Nc3&ns=3.5.5.147.382.1806.970
    You will see that the number of games will rise quite a bit because we can also get this position from a pirc move-order. The move Nbd7, aiming for a hanham philidor is played exclusively in that position.

    It's not very much like comparing King's indian defense and King's indian attack as it's marely different move-order to reach the same position. To me it's more like saying that 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. e4 d6 4. d4 Bg7 is not a King's indian defense.

    The position after 8. Re1 is the big main position of the philidor where it's time for black to choose plan.


    +1

  • #12

    Bc4 is a good move because black has Be6

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