How to Beat the Skandi?

Already discussed a bit:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1086033596/0

I can only imagine you are referring to where they cover Prie's analysis in CBM 106? After his recommended 15...Qe5 16.Bc3 Qc7 17.Kb1 (or 16.Kb1 Qc7 17.Bc3) 17...f6, 18.Rhg1 has scored 100% for White in three games (one with Prie himself playing the black pieces and two with IM John Bartholomew, a player I am quite familiar with who lives a few hours away from me) and looks like White has quite a nice position. The games all continued 18...Nc5 19.Rxd8 Kxd8 20.Bd4 where both 20...Bd6(both Bartholomew games) and 20...Kc8 have been tried. The Prie game continued 21.Qc4 Qxh2?? and White was winning already after 22.Rd1. An improvement could be 21...a6 but even there White looks to be better e.g. 22.Rd1 Kb8 23.c3 Be7 24.Bc2 with the threat of 25.b4. Any holes in my analysis you might be able to point out would be greatly appreciated since I play this line as White.

And after 20...Bd6, the line which was played in both games 21.Bxc5 Bxc5 22.Qc4 looks to be drawish to me, while certainly Black has no chance to win the game I also don't see why he should lose. I don't know if White has real chances to win in this line despite the 100% score. It seems at some point White will be forced to capture on c5 leading to some form of endgame with opposite colored Bishops. Maybe 21.f4!? is an idea trying to preserve the light-squared bishop?

9. ...  Qxf6 seems irrelevant as 9. ...gxf6 is the correct move for Black...

According to several GMs who play the Scandinavian, they wouldn't play it if 9...gxf6 were the only chance...and I think White will always be more comfortable in the gxf6 lines.

and who are these gms? 

yeah GM names and games or didn't happen

I am not calling you a liar at all but am interested in GMs who state what you indicated.  One possibility is that some may have said that BEFORE new theory was developed.

Are any gms currently saying what you indicated?

Let me give you a hint.  Play the main lines.  Putting in the work to study the main lines is far better than playing some cheap trap garbage that might get you a win against a 1400 player, but you start facing experts like me or masters and beyond, these cheap shot ideas, like 4.b4, don't work.

Against 2...Qxd5

Here, there are actually 2 main lines.  I recommend avoiding the 3.Nc3 main line, and go with 3.Nf3.  the idea is to get in the move c4, hitting the Queen, at the right time.  With 3.Nc3, and the e-pawn eliminated, White is working with a single pawn center.  With c4, White controls more central squares, and it's harder for Black to dominate the light squares.

As for 2...Nf6, I recommend 3.d4, not trying to hold the pawn.  Again, you time c4 right, and you'll have a huge space advantage.  These lines I'm recommending are very similar (though not exactly the same) as many lines of Alekhine's Defense.

An excellent book is Beating Unusual Chess Defenses: 1.e4.  It's a book to help out players that play 1.e4 as White, and gives them solutions to all the offbeat defenses to 1.e4 (i.e. Not moving the c-pawn or e-pawn, known by some as the "big 4").  The first chapter is a good 50 pages or so on what I just described above.  Also in there are what to do against the Pirc, Modern, Alekhine, and Nimzovich's Defense, along with brief coverage of the genuine trash, like Owen's Defense.

GM Volzhin, IM Martin, GM Prie(who I think pfren is quoting earlier with that chesspub thread where he said "Like me most Scandinavian players believe that it is an improved Caro-Kann where White was not even given the choice of opting for the advance variation 3.e5. What they like is this structure and show reluctance, apart from well defined dynamic cases, to play with the doubled f-pawns. I agree that the idea 8.Nd5 is critical first of all because it exchanges the 'good' knight on f6 which was controlling some interesting squares in the centre against the 'worse' knight c3 which, opposed to the Caro-Kann main lines was hampering the use of the c-pawn by White. If I had to recapture with 9...gxf6 which if Tiviakov is right could be the only move to get a playable position. Then I would be distinctly less enthusiastic about Black's game, so much so that I would feel like giving up the opening!") , and GM Rowson(who said in 2006 9...Qxf6 is critical although at the time 9...gxf6 was thought to be worse than it is now) all said this just going through Chesspublishing.

When was 9...Qxf6 'buried' by 9...gxf6? Looking at recent games, it seems many grandmasters still play 9...Qxf6. As I said before, Pappoiannou beat Howell with 9...Qxf6 as recently as November of last year. Christian Bauer drew Hamdouchi in August of last year, and the two also drew in April. And Reinderman beat Josh Friedel in China in 2008.

Looking at 9...gxf6, I see games with Bauer (in rapid), Hamdouchi (in blitz), Megaranto, Savic, and one Van Wely game from Tata Steel of this year as well as a Solak game from the Aeroflot Open this year. Based on this comparison in the last two years I see four serious games played with 9...gxf6 and three serious games played with 9...Qxf6 at the GM level. So how do you support your argument for 9...gxf6 ? It seems GM Christian Bauer plays both moves but prefers 9...Qxf6 in serious games.

I'm not particularly fond of the gf6 variation. Grischuk's plan with Nh4 seems quite depressive for Black. I do not know if the most exact move is 10.c3 or 10.0-0, anyway Black is alive but not well in both cases.

Black is fine after 9...gxf6 10.c3 Nd7 11.Nh4 Nb6 12.Bb3 Bd3. If white tries Qc4, simply Bc4. Black also acheives a playable position after 10.Bb3 (plenty of draws in my database) ...Nd7 11.Nh4 Bg6 12.Qf3 f5 13.g3 Nf6.

Bauer had a win in this game 20...Ba3!.

The Scandivian may be unplayable, like many other openings in CC, but certainly is OTB below the very highest level.

I agree with what he said, for the most part. The Kotrc Meises Gambit with 4. b4 is really fun to play and something I have played for many years. However, 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4 e6 is not a blunder. This is known as the Icelandic Gambit and gives Black plenty of play for the pawn. Sorry Expertise, but if you dont have respect for it youll get crushed. 

I have a 100% score against it in tournament play and I still don't have respect for it. One game was against a master.

Black is not fine after 13.Bf4 Ba6 14.Qf3 (suggested by Bauer himself). Actually engines like better the move 13.Qh5, but there are no practical examples.

Black was extremely lucky to survive this one:

10.0-0 Nd7 11.Nh4 is also depressing, although Caruana did not handle it very well against Van Wely recently (probably surprised by the opening, and not prepared very well).

In the 9. Nxf6  gxf6 line there is a plan for White with Nh4 by Grischuk but there are counters to that plan and the theory goes on.....

It takes a lot to refute an established opening--someone who plays that opening seems to often come up with a counter plan!?

I played the Scandianvian for a while, but I just don't like it for Black.  I should say though, these people that say 9...gxf6 is refuted are all smoking something really bad.  9...gxf6 scores about 41 to 43% for Black.  Not exactly a score you want to have, and would prefer in the mid-to-upper 40s, but it's not busted.  Plus, if the Latvian Gambit can stand the test of time, and is still extremely popular in Correspondence Chess, then the Scandinavian can survive too.

By the way, Black can avoid this difficult position if he's willing to part with the Bishop Pair early on, and play Bb4 a move earlier.  This does require holding off on c6, and playing the 5...Bf5 move order.  1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 (I like 3.Nf3 better for White) Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 Bf5 6.Bc4 e6 7.Bd2 Bb4.  Now Nd5 doesn't work, and simply loses a piece.  8.Qe2 allows Black to transpose to the more favorable line with 8...c6.  There are other independent lines, however, and Black must be willing to part with the Bishop pair.

True. In that case, 8.a3 transposes "just" to a miserable position for Black, as he has to take on c3 (remember that the a1 rook is guarded, since the queen is not on e2 yet). So, after 8.a3 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Qc7 10.0-0, Black has achieved a lot: He has locked the bishop in, he has conceded the bishop pair, he has less space, and he's also slightly behind in development. A great achievement.

Really, intuitive play is usually good enough to get a pretty good position out of the Scandinavian with White... especially if Black is stupid and recaptures Qxd5.

To be fair, Black did develop his light-squared bishop. pfren you are analyzing 5...c6 while ThrillerFan was posting on 5...Bf5 so also 9...Qc7 is illegal.

if 1. e4  d5  2. exd5  Qxd5  3. Nf3 then Bg4 is imperative for

Black followed by  Nc6  and 0-0-0 and I like playing the Black side.

I dont think intuitive play [without knowing the opening] is enough for

White in almost any opening.