FWIW, I've always played the accelerated panov against the Caro Kann, which basically just denies them their pawn structure and forces into a more open game/scandinavian type of position.
How to play against the Caro-Kann Pawn Structure (e6 c6?)
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Jun 10, 2021
0
#23
Openings: Primary: Caro–Kann. Other: French, Scandinavian, Trompowsky (colors reversed), Alekhine's.
Character: Slow-paced game.
Themes for White: Outpost on e5, kingside space advantage, d4–d5 break, possibility of queenside majority in the endgame (typically after the exchange of White's d-pawn for Black's c-pawn).
Themes for Black: Weakness of the d4-pawn, ...c6–c5 and ...e6–e5 breaks. The latter break is usually preferable, but harder for Black to achieve.
Jun 11, 2021
0
#24
najdorf96 wrote:
indeed. @TF nice game but if anything, instead of 5. ... ed4, 5. ... Be6 is better (6. c3 Nf6 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. 0-0 Bd6 9. Nbd2 0-0 10. Qe1 Re8 with mutual chances Ozsvath-Flesch, Budapest 1967)
Yes, many lines are better than 5...exd4.
The move you mention, 5...Be6, but also, any of the following as well:
5...Bg4
3...Qb6
3...e6
3...g6 (though I think yours and the first 3 I mentioned are all better, but even this is better than 5...exd4, which borders being outright dubious).
Optimissed wrote:
Wouldn't black block with the knight there and not the bishop? There's no sense blocking with the B because it's non-developing whereas Nb7 is a good developing move. White can't possibly hold the pawn and black is better.
Yes, Nbd7 is the better move, but you'd be surprised how often Bd7 gets played (like 1/3 games even at 2000 elo according to lichess database). Regardless, even if black plays optimally stockfish evaluates the position as 0.0. White has an easy time and can develop quickly, so I think it's a reasonable opening for practical games in faster time controls. Scores about 56% in 2400 elo blitz on lichess.
Jun 11, 2021
0
#26
Grunyarth wrote:
This is objectively about equal but black's going to have no clue what to do ...
Maybe at lower levels.
At the upper expert/master level, any experienced Caro-Kann player is going to know how to play against the Accelerated Panov pretty well.
Likely they'll know it better than white, and will know exactly when white has stumbled out of theory.
BestSell wrote:
Grunyarth wrote:
This is objectively about equal but black's going to have no clue what to do ...
Maybe at lower levels.
At the upper expert/master level, any experienced Caro-Kann player is going to know how to play against the Accelerated Panov pretty well.
Likely they'll know it better than white, and will know exactly when white has stumbled out of theory.
The theory isn't actually difficult at all for white. There is basically only 1 main line where black has very few chances to deviate so it's pretty easy to learn the main line for 10-20 moves.
Obviously it isn't played much at the master level because it is easy for black to equalize, but I think for anything below master it's a great way to get a caro kann player out of their comfort zone even if they know some theory. According to Lichess database it's played 5% of the time at master level (and scores 55%, it isn't used to for drawing), while it's played only about 3% of the time in games below 2000, so it's probably better than most people give it credit for.
Grunyarth wrote:
BestSell wrote:
Grunyarth wrote:
This is objectively about equal but black's going to have no clue what to do ...
Maybe at lower levels.
At the upper expert/master level, any experienced Caro-Kann player is going to know how to play against the Accelerated Panov pretty well.
Likely they'll know it better than white, and will know exactly when white has stumbled out of theory.
The theory isn't actually difficult at all for white. There is basically only 1 main line where black has very few chances to deviate so it's pretty easy to learn the main line for 10-20 moves.
Obviously it isn't played much at the master level because it is easy for black to equalize, but I think for anything below master it's a great way to get a caro kann player out of their comfort zone even if they know some theory. According to Lichess database it's played 5% of the time at master level (and scores 55%, it isn't used to for drawing), while it's played only about 3% of the time in games below 2000, so it's probably better than most people give it credit for.
If you like to present an argument for a line...fine.
Don't do it only supported by inferior moves though based on hopes of the other player not knowing or making a mistake. It's difficult to improve with that method.
indeed. Nice line from an objective stance. As black, I don't think i would've played 11. ... Qd5 just yet. I have no thoughts other than just not exchanging Queens. As it is, seems realistic. Although the resulting position does favor white more, black has to play sharp n accurate to regain equality whereas white can just bide his time with maneuvers until the defense cracks.
@TF cool. But using the lines I mentioned (from 5. ... Be6) is good enough to rebuff any claims of annihilation by you.
indeed. We used to call it a "Modern Variant" back in my day (Mid-90's) but okay the "Accelerated Panov" it is! To which I would have avoided such lines with 2. ... e5
indeed2. The line in question: 1. e4 c6 2. c4 d5 3. de5 cd5 4. cd5 Ng6 5. Qa4+ Bd7 6. Qb3 Na6[!] ~Seirawan! I had studied also back in the day to everyone else's point, being a true CK player. On the other hand, yeah I can see if a Scandinavian player never saw such a transposition and didn't bone up on Caro theory in case-he'd get rocked.
edit: my post #34 was referring to post #21
Caruana vs So, Clutch Chess online 2020 is a recent example of White's play in the Spassky variation.