How to surprise white in the italian

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athlblue
Compadre_J wrote:
ibrust wrote:

You're getting too lost in theory crafting here... In the philidor, after Nc6, white does not respond with Bc4 but with d5 immediately. With Bc4 played, after d5 the bishop is staring at a brick wall. The Paris defense position is +0.23 according to leela, the philidor Nc3 position is +.41... for reference, the mainline philidor exchange is +0.29. It is simply not correct to say this is a worse philidor, it is not. Plenty of common openings leela scores in the range of +0.2-+0.3 including the KID, which the structure is very similar to... the position is fine. Furthermore, the line that scores +0.23 here is the Bd3 > c4 KID-type position - if Nc3 (most common move) is played instead of Bd3 > c4 the position is +0.19 - at this point you're in the territory of most common black defenses. 
Anyway, the whole benefit of the opening is in the assumption the opponent will not be prepared - if I can bring to bear all my understanding of the KID, a d4 opening, against an e4 player I think that's a significant victory - it must be better than playing the KID against a d4 player.

I’m not getting lost in theory crafting.

I have played these positions and against these positions.

I am trying to tell you White has multiple responses they can play.

Your getting to focused on 1 move or continuation.

Look at the below chess position again:

White has 6 moves they commonly play in this position.

- d5 - Which transposes the line into KID most of the time.

- Nc3 - Which transposes the line into 3 Knights.

- c3 - Whiche transposes the line into the Ponzai.

- exd5 - Which is End Game Queen trade line

- Bb5 - Which white often gives up Bishop pair for pawn structure damage

- Bc4 - Which white often tries control d5 square with pieces.

———————————

You are playing the Nimzo move order so the only line which is pertaining to you is Bc4 line.

The above line is the line you will face.

It is same line which can be played in the Philidor.

It is 1 of whites 6 moves which they can play.

When white elects to play Bc4 in the Philidor, They will never follow up with d5.

The Philidor move order allows them to play d5.

If they elect not to do it and play Bc4 instead, they are aiming to play a different way.

The reason they play Bc4 is to add attackers to d5 square.

Their plan isn’t to occupy the d5 square with a pawn. They want to occupy the square with a piece. They want to use it as out post square.

Pushing the d4 pawn to d5 would block the Bishop they developed to c4.

Why would a good player do that? A good player wouldn’t do it.

This is what I am telling you.

The d4 pawn will be traded 1 way or another. You will either take d4 pawn with your e5 pawn or they will take your e5 pawn with their d4 pawn to open up the position.

By doing the above, the bishop they developed to c4 never gets blocked in.

Than they open the file to add more attackers to d5 so they can pivot on d5 with pieces.

———————————

The lines your showing were white plays d5 are bad lines for white.

You will have great game if your opponents make the above mistake.

You might get lucky and face bunch of players who don’t understand the position and play d5.

In the line that @darkunorthodox88 gives, white has already played Bc4. Meanwhile, if black plays your move order, white does not have to play Bc4. In fact, Bc4 is not a good move at all.

Compadre_J

The below position is the Italian Game: Paris Defense.

The below position is the starting position of the Philidor Defense.

 

If we add a few more moves, we are still in the Philidor Defense

The move Bc4 has always been move in the above position.

It is top 4 most played move and it has the highest winning/drawing percentages for White.

- Top played move is dxe5:

It is a Queenless position which often gives Black no pressure or issue. Compared to other White chess continuations this line is probably the most tame. Black should have no trouble reaching equality in such a soft line.

The databases win rate and draw rate for white also reflect this.

- Second most played move is d5:

It transposes the line into a KID, but most players playing white will not know what to do because they may have never played 1.d4. If they have been an exclusive 1.e4 their whole chess career. Players playing Black might know how to play KID because it might be what they play against 1.d4 opponents.

The bad white win rate and draw rate is merely a reflection of the above situation.

- Third most played move Bb5:

White often gives up bishop for knight on c6 to inflict pawn structure damage. It comes at the cost of giving black the bishop pair and well sometimes giving your opponent the bishop pair isn’t wise.

It’s not shock why this line has lower win rate and draw rate for white either.

—————————————————

When Bc4 gets played using the Philidor move order, The position will mirror the Italian Game: Paris Defense.

The move Bc4 is a strong move in Philidor and it maintains white advantage.

———————————————

The below position is using the Nimzo move order.

According to Wikipedia, The Italian Game: Paris Defense was created or first used in 1846

According to Wikipedia, The Philidor Defense was created and mention in a book published by the Priest Ruy Lopez in 1561. The Priest wanted to debunk his rival who said Black best move on move 2…Nc6. The Priest argued the move 2…Nc6 was bad because it allowed 3.Bb5 which was known as Spanish Game at the time. It later became named Ruy Lopez after the Priest who published a literature about the line.

In the book, Ruy Lopez argued 2…d6 was better because it avoided the 3.Bb5 line.

This is the origins of the Philidor. Centuries later a man named Francisco Andre’ Danican Phildior begin revolutionizing the line. The line ended up ultimately being renamed after him.

So in fact if we are really being technical the Italian Game: Paris Defense is merely an transpose into the Philidor Defense which they have failed to acknowledge!

Its ok - the Philidor Defense players will not be upset if you wish to believe in the tissue of lies. Their is no Paris Defense as far as we are concerned.

Its the Philidor thru transposition. You don’t even realize what your playing.

darkunorthodox88

thats not a philidor 1.e4 e5 2.nf3 nc6 2.d4 d6?! is an inferior line of the scotch game by transposition. it has nothing to do with the paris defense.

darkunorthodox88

actually no one has mentioned their preferred line vs the scotch. after 3....exd4 nxd4 4. qf6 is a good offbeat line and if you like really doubled edged 4.qh5!? actually wins a pawn in exchange for the king going on d8. engine prefers white but its by no means refuted as far i know.

Compadre_J
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

thats not a philidor 1.e4 e5 2.nf3 nc6 2.d4 d6?! is an inferior line of the scotch game by transposition. it has nothing to do with the paris defense.

Yes!

The below is the Scotch move order.

The 4th most played move in the above position is Bc4 as well.

The line the OP will reach from Nimzo Move order will need to have Bc4.

It’s same exact position as all the other positions.

I think black should probably take the pawn.

This could be 1 way black plays.

crazedrat1000
Optimissed wrote:
ibrust wrote:

Title of the thread. I'm forming a repertoire based on the nimzowitsch defense... I've never played the italian / ruy lopez / scotch position as black, but transposing into these lines from the nimzowitsch is the only thing that looks good to me here.

The whole point of the repertoire is to throw white off, that's why I'm playing the nimzowitsch. I have something for the Ruy Lopez I'm happy with....

 

I'm not worried about the scotch, and I'm happy with the rest of the repertoire... but I need something in the italian. I'm looking for a way to surprise white... I don't want to play the same old game everyone else is playing, that is just antithetical to my approach to the game. I also find it just doesn't work. And it's alot less fun.

So it seems to me that there is nothing in the italian that is not either completely played to death, or just bad for black. Am I wrong? 
I'm looking for lines that will, if not surprise a decent player, at least they should be effective lines and fairly uncommon... ideally it should allow me to sidestep most of their plans as well... I've never played the italian which is why I'm asking for advice. Ideally these would be lines that are viable enough where I could play them until ~2200.

Any suggestions?

What's the point, since it isn't a transposition? Really you're going straight into an Italian and the Nimzo move would be 2. ...d5.

Playing 1... Nc6 is the nimzowitsch defense. When play proceeds 2. Nf3 e5 this is a transposition into the kings knight opening. 40% of players go for 2. Nf3, but 60% of players wlil respond 2. d4 or 2. Nc3. Therefor the "point" would be to a) play the nimzowitsch lines 60% of the time, b) avoid whatever else white could prepare other than the mainline italian / ruy lopez, which includes the kings gambit, vienna game, center game, and bishops opening, c) not have to play the williams defense which is just an ugly position and openings like the paris defense / fiancetto defense seem much preferred

So that's the point, since you couldn't figure it out.

crazedrat1000
Compadre_J wrote:

The below position is the Italian Game: Paris Defense.

The below position is the starting position of the Philidor Defense.

 

If we add a few more moves, we are still in the Philidor Defense

The move Bc4 has always been move in the above position.

It is top 4 most played move and it has the highest winning/drawing percentages for White.

- Top played move is dxe5:

It is a Queenless position which often gives Black no pressure or issue. Compared to other White chess continuations this line is probably the most tame. Black should have no trouble reaching equality in such a soft line.

The databases win rate and draw rate for white also reflect this.

- Second most played move is d5:

It transposes the line into a KID, but most players playing white will not know what to do because they may have never played 1.d4. If they have been an exclusive 1.e4 their whole chess career. Players playing Black might know how to play KID because it might be what they play against 1.d4 opponents.

The bad white win rate and draw rate is merely a reflection of the above situation.

- Third most played move Bb5:

White often gives up bishop for knight on c6 to inflict pawn structure damage. It comes at the cost of giving black the bishop pair and well sometimes giving your opponent the bishop pair isn’t wise.

It’s not shock why this line has lower win rate and draw rate for white either.

—————————————————

When Bc4 gets played using the Philidor move order, The position will mirror the Italian Game: Paris Defense.

The move Bc4 is a strong move in Philidor and it maintains white advantage.

———————————————

The below position is using the Nimzo move order.

According to Wikipedia, The Italian Game: Paris Defense was created or first used in 1846

According to Wikipedia, The Philidor Defense was created and mention in a book published by the Priest Ruy Lopez in 1561. The Priest wanted to debunk his rival who said Black best move on move 2…Nc6. The Priest argued the move 2…Nc6 was bad because it allowed 3.Bb5 which was known as Spanish Game at the time. It later became named Ruy Lopez after the Priest who published a literature about the line.

In the book, Ruy Lopez argued 2…d6 was better because it avoided the 3.Bb5 line.

This is the origins of the Philidor. Centuries later a man named Francisco Andre’ Danican Phildior begin revolutionizing the line. The line ended up ultimately being renamed after him.

So in fact if we are really being technical the Italian Game: Paris Defense is merely an transpose into the Philidor Defense which they have failed to acknowledge!

Its ok - the Philidor Defense players will not be upset if you wish to believe in the tissue of lies. Their is no Paris Defense as far as we are concerned.

Its the Philidor thru transposition. You don’t even realize what your playing.

a) 3... Nc6 is not a main line in the philidor, it is played 1% of the time in the masters database and is a terrible move,

b) the following 4. Bc4 is not a common response or even a good one, it is the 5th most common move in the masters database and has been played a grand total of 9 times, and the engine scores it as the 7th best move. In contrast, the paris defense position has been reached 149 times in the masters database. This position occurs about 16x more frequently from the Paris defense than from the philidor. No good move order in the philidor reaches this position.

c) in the scotch 3... d6 has been played a grand total of 62 times in the masters database, transposing with the bad philidor line where then following 7th best move by the engine 4. Bc4 has been played again 9 times. So actually, between both the scotch and the philidor the position you are going on about has been reached 9 times in the entire history of the masters database, which goes back to 1952 and includes all FIDE master level games.

d) this is literally the starting position of the Paris defense we're talking about, plus 1 move played by white. It's not even a move order deep in the paris defense, black has made 3 moves and it's the paris defense.

I'm afraid you are just babbling nonsense, I don't have the time to read this giant post all based on this very faulty premise you could have corrected with a tiny bit of research, but it's sufficient to say this is not a philidor or a scotch in any meaningful sense. For example, 99.99% of scotch / philidor players will not play this line, and positionally it has nothing in common with either opening, meanwhile it is literally 1 move deep into the paris defense, so why would we call it anything else...?

You seem to always come up with some way to be completely wrong and confused, it's amazing but you manage it somehow.

Keep trying

Compadre_J
ibrust wrote:
Compadre_J wrote:

The below position is the Italian Game: Paris Defense.

The below position is the starting position of the Philidor Defense.

 

If we add a few more moves, we are still in the Philidor Defense

The move Bc4 has always been move in the above position.

It is top 4 most played move and it has the highest winning/drawing percentages for White.

- Top played move is dxe5:

It is a Queenless position which often gives Black no pressure or issue. Compared to other White chess continuations this line is probably the most tame. Black should have no trouble reaching equality in such a soft line.

The databases win rate and draw rate for white also reflect this.

- Second most played move is d5:

It transposes the line into a KID, but most players playing white will not know what to do because they may have never played 1.d4. If they have been an exclusive 1.e4 their whole chess career. Players playing Black might know how to play KID because it might be what they play against 1.d4 opponents.

The bad white win rate and draw rate is merely a reflection of the above situation.

- Third most played move Bb5:

White often gives up bishop for knight on c6 to inflict pawn structure damage. It comes at the cost of giving black the bishop pair and well sometimes giving your opponent the bishop pair isn’t wise.

It’s not shock why this line has lower win rate and draw rate for white either.

—————————————————

When Bc4 gets played using the Philidor move order, The position will mirror the Italian Game: Paris Defense.

The move Bc4 is a strong move in Philidor and it maintains white advantage.

———————————————

The below position is using the Nimzo move order.

According to Wikipedia, The Italian Game: Paris Defense was created or first used in 1846

According to Wikipedia, The Philidor Defense was created and mention in a book published by the Priest Ruy Lopez in 1561. The Priest wanted to debunk his rival who said Black best move on move 2…Nc6. The Priest argued the move 2…Nc6 was bad because it allowed 3.Bb5 which was known as Spanish Game at the time. It later became named Ruy Lopez after the Priest who published a literature about the line.

In the book, Ruy Lopez argued 2…d6 was better because it avoided the 3.Bb5 line.

This is the origins of the Philidor. Centuries later a man named Francisco Andre’ Danican Phildior begin revolutionizing the line. The line ended up ultimately being renamed after him.

So in fact if we are really being technical the Italian Game: Paris Defense is merely an transpose into the Philidor Defense which they have failed to acknowledge!

Its ok - the Philidor Defense players will not be upset if you wish to believe in the tissue of lies. Their is no Paris Defense as far as we are concerned.

Its the Philidor thru transposition. You don’t even realize what your playing.

a) 3... Nc6 is not a main line in the philidor, it is played 1% of the time in the masters database and is a terrible move,

b) the following 4. Bc4 is not a common response or even a good one, it is the 5th most common move in the masters database and has been played a grand total of 9 times, and the engine scores it as the 7th best move. In contrast, the paris defense position has been reached 149 times in the masters database. This position occurs about 16x more frequently from the Paris defense than from the philidor. No good move order in the philidor reaches this position.

c) in the scotch 3... d6 has been played a grand total of 62 times in the masters database, transposing with the bad philidor line where then following 7th best move by the engine 4. Bc4 has been played again 9 times. So actually, between both the scotch and the philidor the position you are going on about has been reached 9 times in the entire history of the masters database, which goes back to 1952 and includes all FIDE master level games.

d) this is literally the starting position of the Paris defense we're talking about, plus 1 move played by white. It's not even a move order deep in the paris defense, black has made 3 moves and it's the paris defense.

I'm afraid you are just babbling nonsense, I don't have the time to read this giant post all based on this very faulty premise you could have corrected with a tiny bit of research, but it's sufficient to say this is not a philidor or a scotch in any meaningful sense. For example, 99.99% of scotch / philidor players will not play this line, and positionally it has nothing in common with either opening, meanwhile it is literally 1 move deep into the paris defense, so why would we call it anything else...?

You seem to always come up with some way to be completely wrong and confused, it's amazing but you manage it somehow.

Keep trying

A) I never said 3…Nc6 is a main move in the Philidor.

What I said is the move 3…Nc6 has been played a lot in the Philidor.

It is played a lot by beginners who don’t know what they are doing.

The move 3…Nc6 is considered to be a bad move.

However, it doesn’t matter whether the move is good move or bad move.

The position is still the Philidor Defense.

Chess Openings have good moves and bad moves in them. 

3…Nc6 is considered to be bad move in the Philidor Defense.

This is why your database doesn’t show many top level players playing it.

Your database will show bunch of weak players playing it who don’t know better.

——————————————

The below diagram is of the Paris Defense which you keep talking about.

I told you the above line is transposing into a weak Nc6 Philidor line.

You or NM responded by saying it’s not the Philidor line, but it is.

—————————————

However, let’s say for arguments sake your right, let’s say the above position is a unique line which has nothing to do with the Philidor.

Why do you think out of the millions upon millions of games you only found 149 games played by top level players in this position?

If this line was so amazing, Wouldn’t GrandMasters all around world be lining up to play it?

Is the move 3…d6 the main move against the Italian Game?

Are you starting to understand?

Something is fishy about this line! - You better figure out what is jacked up about this line before your ranking plummets.

I already gave you a *Hint* on how to figure out how to find what’s so messed up about.

Research the Nc6 Philidor line - If you do, you’ll understand why this line is bad.

If you research the Paris Defense - They will not tell you why the line is bad. They will say only good things like bunch of fan boys. They will pump you full of happy juice and leave you excited to play this line against the masses.

‘Only to have you get completely destroyed.

Go ahead - you don’t want to listen to what I’m saying that’s fine.

I’m only one trying to help you from getting pummeled.

I guess your just going to have to learn the hard way.

athlblue

Do you not understand the difference between

this and

this?

Compadre_J
athlblue wrote:

Do you not understand the difference between

this and

this?

It’s white to move in the first diagram your showing and they can play Bc4 which is same position. It’s the Philidor position regardless if they play d5 or Bc4 or Bb5.

Its the Philidor defense even if you think Bc4 is bad move.

Its the Philidor defense even if you think Bc4 is good move.

What would players saying about the above position?

They would say 3…Nc6 is a bad move.

Than they would say white followed up with an equally good or bad move 4.Bc4

However, it doesn’t matter because the position is still Philidor Defense.

I, personally, have already explained why I think the move 4.Bc4 is a good move.

I think 3…Nc6 is a bad move for Black.

I think 4. Bc4 is good move in response for White.

———————————————

The OP needs to research Nc6 Phildior line and he needs to pay extra attention to the 4. Bc4 response as that is what is going to relate to his position thru transposition.

However, the OP is strong player.

I would hope he already knows the above with out me having to say it which is why I didn’t say it.

Compadre_J

Side note here:

Did the OP ever follow up on the advice National Master Dark Unorthodox said?

It’s almost like the Larsen Philidor with the moves Nc6 and Bc4 being inserted.

I wonder how the addition of moves Nc6 & Bc4 impact the line.

Would it be better or worse?

I do think Black does play Nc6 in Larsen at some point.

Does White play Bc4 would be interesting question?

If white doesn’t play Bc4 in this position, than white has been move order tricked by way of transposition. It could be big deal.

crazedrat1000

TLDR: the position a half-move deep into the paris defense and the most natural response to it, reached 16x more frequently from the paris defense than from all other positions in the game combined while simultaneously the paris defense is played orders of magnitudes less frequently than other openings, is not the paris defense according to this autist.

crazedrat1000

Bc4 is a terrible move in that position. That's not a matter of opinion, it is the 7th ranking move by the engine and it just makes d5 not good since now d5 will block your bishop, but d5 is the entire problem with playing Nc6, thus you've just made the mistake Nc6 unexploitable and completely given away your advantage... and infact now the engine likes the position significantly better for black than the mainline philidor. You are just sailing off into the bleachers babbling this nonsense to yourself. Do you not bother to actually check your ideas with engines? Go download an engine.

darkunorthodox88

the rarity of a line does not always reflect the soundness of it. They are plenty of forgotten lines in the ruy lopez that are very rarely played despite all being sound (the cozio, the old steinitz, even the bird defense if you well prepared) that are not played due to a combination of reasons including fashion, more diverse variations, faster equality in other lines ( like the berlin which 30 years ago was considered dubious). This is ESPECIALLY the case since engines have revived so many openings that were once dismissed as dubious.

actually i did a bit of research when i expanded my own nimzowitsch defense theory to include 2.nf3 e5 transpositions and compared all lines with take on d4 and g6. and this what i have discovered

soundest is the old steinitz with g6, because black benefits alot from the bishop pair, and nxc6 is just a tempo loss.

next is soundness is the paris defense with g6 idea i mentioned, nc6 can be argued to slightly premature but so is the bishop on c4 which is slightly misplaced allows, either early d5 or a swift be6.

then is the larsen philidor (not from the nimzowitsch defense move order, but worth analyzing to compare). actually the theory on the larsen philidor had been in trouble at least since Bauer's philidor files as the main line with opposite side castling is practically refuting black with accurate play but the engines discovered that early nf6 before bg7 gives black extra defensive resources via a ng4-ne5 maneuver vs be3 and a a nc6 tactic vs bf4. still the critical lines make it very hard to play accurately

finally, you have 3.g6 /3.d6 vs the three knights and 4.g6 in the scotch. In both lines, the eval is quite favorable to white as the precise timing of nc6 and g6 is misplaced and its often difficult to explain precisely why.( sometimes, white gets to play nd5 and nb5 with a critical threat on c7 or you transpose to a larsen philidor where nc6 is incorrect vs be3). These are borderline refuted and cannot be recommended at all.

darkunorthodox88
ibrust wrote:

Bc4 is a terrible move in that position. That's not a matter of opinion, it is the 7th ranking move by the engine and it just makes d5 not good since now d5 will block your bishop, but d5 is the entire problem with playing Nc6, thus you've just made the mistake Nc6 unexploitable and completely given away your advantage... and infact now the engine likes the position significantly better for black than the mainline philidor. You are just sailing off into the bleachers babbling this nonsense to yourself. Do you not bother to actually check your ideas with engines? Go download an engine.

actually i disagree here and if you actually look at the master database, few masters play d5 here. d5 is an engine move as engine loves space but d5 lets go of the central tension too soon and allows black to regroup in KID or old indian fashion. Maybe too engines who love to gobble space this is an unacceptable disadvantage but most human masters would find d5 strategically premature even if sound. most masters would merely keep the tension with nc3, c3 or bc4. (notice for example that after nc3, exd4 nxd4 g6!? is now dubious due to nd5!). of course you right that if white intended d5, bc4 makes no sense.

the reason 3.d6 is deemed bad in this scotch position is because exd4 equalizes far faster

crazedrat1000

Actually I never suggested to play d5 immediately, I pointed out that Nc3 creates the threat of d5 and then Bc4 diminishes it, really just saying d5 is the main threat in the position, which it is. That doesn't imply you can't keep the tension if you like and play d5 somewhere down the road, or just maintain the threat of it, there are plenty of good moves... it also doesn't imply you should just go with the engine eval. However, you do need to consider the main threats in the position when assessing a move such as Bc4. Clearly you don't want to just neutralize your own threats in the position for your opponent. But obviously I don't just automatically go with the engine move, I am playing the nimzowitsch defense and the paris defense so what do you think.

However, I will also go on a limb here and say the engine does like the move immediately as well, and I know you all like to feel you're special snowflakes gifted with amazing penetrating insight but this is leela we're talking about, and usually her eval remains pretty consistent deep into lines. What you're saying is just a stylistic choice, it's a self-indulgence to assert your opinion, it's not like you're giving some objective analysis, some people prefer playing with space and others choke when they lack space, so... And when you speculate on the inner workings of the engine... neural nets dont work like traditional engines, I don't think the old logic of "engines just like space" quite applies the same to a neural net like leela. The way you train a neural net... there's no telling how it's calibrated or what it's really looking for.

Carry onward!

darkunorthodox88
ibrust wrote:

Actually I never suggested to play d5 immediately, I pointed out that Nc3 creates the threat of d5 and then Bc4 diminishes it, really just saying d5 is the main threat in the position, which it is. That doesn't imply you can't keep the tension if you like and play d5 somewhere down the road, or just maintain the threat of it, there are plenty of good moves... it also doesn't imply you should just go with the engine eval. However, you do need to consider the main threats in the position when assessing a move such as Bc4. Clearly you don't want to just neutralize your own threats in the position for your opponent. But obviously I don't just automatically go with the engine move, I am playing the nimzowitsch defense and the paris defense so what do you think.

However, I will also go on a limb here and say the engine does like the move immediately as well, and I know you all like to feel you're special snowflakes gifted with amazing penetrating insight but this is leela we're talking about, and usually her eval remains pretty consistent deep into lines. What you're saying is just a stylistic choice, it's a self-indulgence to assert your opinion, it's not like you're giving some objective analysis, some people prefer playing with space and others choke when they lack space, so... And when you speculate on the inner workings of the engine... neural nets dont work like traditional engines, I don't think the old logic of "engines just like space" quite applies the same to a neural net like leela. The way you train a neural net... there's no telling how it's calibrated or what it's really looking for.

Carry onward!

its not my indulgence, its the overwhelming consensus in master games. d5 is goes agaisnt decades of theory on how to play king pawn positions. in king pawn positions, you either keep the tension via c3-d4 like in the ruy or in some sidelines play for d4 right away but dont let go unless opportune.

are masters wrong? maybe, but these super amped up engines play in ways which humans rarely get to replicate well. They play and "think" far more concretely than we do. Besides, at the end of the day, if you insist on the god eye view, an opening or defense is either a win or a draw with best play. and openings even as high as 1+ in initial eval often lead to a draw with best play.

crazedrat1000
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
ibrust wrote:

Actually I never suggested to play d5 immediately, I pointed out that Nc3 creates the threat of d5 and then Bc4 diminishes it, really just saying d5 is the main threat in the position, which it is. That doesn't imply you can't keep the tension if you like and play d5 somewhere down the road, or just maintain the threat of it, there are plenty of good moves... it also doesn't imply you should just go with the engine eval. However, you do need to consider the main threats in the position when assessing a move such as Bc4. Clearly you don't want to just neutralize your own threats in the position for your opponent. But obviously I don't just automatically go with the engine move, I am playing the nimzowitsch defense and the paris defense so what do you think.

However, I will also go on a limb here and say the engine does like the move immediately as well, and I know you all like to feel you're special snowflakes gifted with amazing penetrating insight but this is leela we're talking about, and usually her eval remains pretty consistent deep into lines. What you're saying is just a stylistic choice, it's a self-indulgence to assert your opinion, it's not like you're giving some objective analysis, some people prefer playing with space and others choke when they lack space, so... And when you speculate on the inner workings of the engine... neural nets dont work like traditional engines, I don't think the old logic of "engines just like space" quite applies the same to a neural net like leela. The way you train a neural net... there's no telling how it's calibrated or what it's really looking for.

Carry onward!

its not my indulgence, its the overwhelming consensus in master games. d5 is goes agaisnt decades of theory on how to play king pawn positions. in king pawn positions, you either keep the tension via c3-d4 like in the ruy or in some sidelines play for d4 right away but dont let go unless opportune.

are masters wrong? maybe, but these super amped up engines play in ways which humans rarely get to replicate well. They play and "think" far more concretely than we do. Besides, at the end of the day, if you insist on the god eye view, an opening or defense is either a win or a draw with best play. and openings even as high as 1+ in initial eval often lead to a draw with best play.

It leads to a position that is almost the same as the KID and scores exactly the same, there is not some major theoretical problem with the position or consensus it should never be played, those positions are widely played. And it isn't a common kings pawn position... if you're able to take your opponent into a completely different style position than they typically play that's a good thing, not a bad thing. You do not speak for all masters either. Again some people prefer space, others don't, it's a mostly arbitrary argument. But yes, when the engine says d5 is the best move and it almost transposes to a widely played defense I think it is a viable move, I do not buy into your personal gut instinct that it is some major mistake for... reasons.... It may not be your style, that's fine, but if you're presuming that your opinion is some sort of truism... no. Perhaps in other positions, like the philidor. But this is not a philidor, and you know what they say about assumptions...

darkunorthodox88
ibrust wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
ibrust wrote:

Actually I never suggested to play d5 immediately, I pointed out that Nc3 creates the threat of d5 and then Bc4 diminishes it, really just saying d5 is the main threat in the position, which it is. That doesn't imply you can't keep the tension if you like and play d5 somewhere down the road, or just maintain the threat of it, there are plenty of good moves... it also doesn't imply you should just go with the engine eval. However, you do need to consider the main threats in the position when assessing a move such as Bc4. Clearly you don't want to just neutralize your own threats in the position for your opponent. But obviously I don't just automatically go with the engine move, I am playing the nimzowitsch defense and the paris defense so what do you think.

However, I will also go on a limb here and say the engine does like the move immediately as well, and I know you all like to feel you're special snowflakes gifted with amazing penetrating insight but this is leela we're talking about, and usually her eval remains pretty consistent deep into lines. What you're saying is just a stylistic choice, it's a self-indulgence to assert your opinion, it's not like you're giving some objective analysis, some people prefer playing with space and others choke when they lack space, so... And when you speculate on the inner workings of the engine... neural nets dont work like traditional engines, I don't think the old logic of "engines just like space" quite applies the same to a neural net like leela. The way you train a neural net... there's no telling how it's calibrated or what it's really looking for.

Carry onward!

its not my indulgence, its the overwhelming consensus in master games. d5 is goes agaisnt decades of theory on how to play king pawn positions. in king pawn positions, you either keep the tension via c3-d4 like in the ruy or in some sidelines play for d4 right away but dont let go unless opportune.

are masters wrong? maybe, but these super amped up engines play in ways which humans rarely get to replicate well. They play and "think" far more concretely than we do. Besides, at the end of the day, if you insist on the god eye view, an opening or defense is either a win or a draw with best play. and openings even as high as 1+ in initial eval often lead to a draw with best play.

It leads to a position that is almost the same as the KID and scores exactly the same, there is not some major theoretical problem with the position or consensus it should never be played, those positions are widely played. And it isn't a common kings pawn position... if you're able to take your opponent into a completely different style position than they typically play that's a good thing, not a bad thing. You do not speak for all masters either. Again some people prefer space, others don't, it's a mostly arbitrary argument. But yes, when the engine says d5 is the best move and it almost transposes to a widely played defense I think it is a viable move, I do not buy into your personal gut instinct that it is some major mistake for... reasons.... It may not be your style, that's fine, but if you're presuming that your opinion is some sort of truism... no. Perhaps in other positions, like the philidor. But this is not a philidor, and you know what they say about assumptions...

once, again its not my bias, look up in the database how often d5 is played in that position, mine says 11 times. it is not a popular move, in many ways it solves blacks strategic problems.

crazedrat1000

Well the position has only been reached 150 some odd times, so to say 11 times d5 has been played... you should say it's played 6% of time, it's not like everyone is rejecting the move. You're correct d5 isn't common throughout the kings pawn opening, but that's a relatively meaningless observation, this sort of position is also not common throughout king pawn openings... name a kings pawn position where you have a knight on c6 and a pawn on d4 and it's white to move... oh wait, the williams defense - where pushing d5 is the main move. d5 is played in many openings, and this is literally transposing to a KID pretty much, so what is your point? You don't have one, everyone plays the KID... your argument said nothing about the actual strategy in this position, the only real takeaway from your comment is that in this obscure position which is almost never reached naturally players tend to respond with Bb5 or some other typical philidor type move they're used to playing... well sure but that's a meaningless observation, we wouldn't always expect master players to play the main line in an obscure position they will never see. And d5 doesnt solve any problem for black it creates them, that's why it is evaluated 0.11 higher by leela than any other move in the position. I use leela frequently, that is a very large eval swing, it's like the difference between a philidor and a ruy lopez, not common at all, not merely due to space taking, there are tons of positions where you could take space and leela doesn't overestimate evals by 0.1 or more very frequently at all.

Anyway, you can keep talking but you're not actually saying anything strategic about the position, I think this conversation is becoming quite meaningless.