I need help choosing openings (yes one more of that post)

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Hudlommen
tigergutt wrote:

the very most important part when you choose openings is that you choose openings you find fun! almost all openings are good at amateurlevel (below master). i even know a master who start with 1.a4 on this site. you dont want to be going on for years with openings that are boring to you do you? when you could have had fun

I agree with your point. So many high-level players think too much in how THEY see chess, not how the scrubs like me and the guys down here see it.

Hudlommen
jlconn wrote:

Advice about openings is like opinions. And we know what opinions are like.

My own idea is that one should learn ALL of the openings - in the order in which they developed historically. Your first "repertoire" would be open games, and after playing those for a while, I'd recommend Ken Smith's suggestion of adopting a "forcing" repertoire (mine is London System as White, Center Counter vs 1.e4, and Dutch vs 1.d4, 1.Nf3, 1.c4 - none of these can be avoided by my opponent, so that's why they are "forcing") and learning that as well as anyone in the world.

By the way, those against KIA/KID for beginners are probably thinking that you should play open games first. OK, but otherwise what they said is crap. Any opening has more subtlety than will be appreciated by players at a lower level, and KIA/KID actually have some very good points in their favor in terms of being beginner's openings. If you like KIA/KID, there are two of your three forcing lines ... you'd probably like either the Pirc or the Sicilian against 1.e4.

But don't ignore the open games and classical defenses. At the very least, play them in casual games, because they tend to teach the lessons that should come first in chess.

That's my 2cents.

I like your answer, it has some open structure to it. I will try to look into it and i might message you with a bit more questions :)

Hudlommen
btickler wrote:

I would stay far away from opening systems at 1200, actually.  Stay away from the KID, too.  They are going to impress a "I need to find moves I can just play that will work regardless of what my opponent does" mindset that will kill you later.  You'll also limit what you see from your opponents, and that's the last thing you want.

...

I like your idea, but i think it kinda is how i play at the moment. Sure i stick to the first 2-4 moves of queens gambit, but then its just 'whatever i feel like' from there on out.

Hudlommen
Estragon wrote:

At your level, spending your time "learning openings" is at best a complete waste, and it could actually hurt your progress.

It's fine to learn the names of the openings, and the first couple of moves which define them, but that's more than you really need.  Right now if you just follow the basic rules of development, you'll be fine.

 

You don't lose games because you don't know the latest grandmaster refinement in the Moscow Variation, or what 10th move transpositions are possible in the Nadjorf Sicilian.  You lose games because you overlook simple tactics that cost you a piece or get you mated, and you don't see the chances your opponent gives you.

That is a problem of tactics, not openings.

Experience is the best teacher.  Play slow games and save them, go over them later to find the mistakes.  They are not hard to find - try a move or two before you lost a piece or got mated.  Then try to recognize what you missed in the game so you don't lose the same way again.

Also, in between, Tactics Trainer and other puzzle challenges can be useful, too, but only if you can understand the tactical ideas you see and try to use that in your games.

I can see what you mean, but i still belive that i can learn from looking at openings. Understand what to look for and attack/defend/avoid can still give you some understanding of chess as a hole. In some openings 1 square is really key, and learning to play around or towards that can be very good learning. 
But learning long strings of endless move orders will never work. Its like starcraft where people have a strict plan for the first 20 mins of gameplay, will never work :D  

JGambit

Better players know that begineers dont need openings, at this point why even say it. Lets just suggest some openings and move on, This stupid game is for fun anway, and if learning openings seems like more fun then learning endgames then why should we dissuade anybody from that. Not everybody needs to become master chess players unlike real life where good advice is often ignored good chess advice can be safely ignored with no real issues resulting.

Back to the point to kind of go along with the good advice you have gotten. Study and try out some gambits, they are fun to play and at most levels the edge in development will be well worth the pawn.

maskedbishop

1) Survey all the main ones and learn the first 8 or so moves for all of them. This means about two dozen or so openings. That gives you a flavor. It's not hard to do this. 

2) Pick a few you like, and/or have a lot of experience with, and buy good books on them. The books are getting better...the "Move by Move" series is a good example.

3) Read the books and play all the lines in them, and read the author's comments as you do. Yes, you need to do this to "study" an opening. It will make you a better player in general too. Try to play the lines on a real board, not on a computer screen or in your head. It helps. 

4) Finally, take Bobby Fischer's advice. Get the MCO, and play every line and every footnoted variation on every page. Then do it again :)

maskedbishop

BTW, I am long on record as being totally opposed to the time-honored canard that "beginners shouldn't study openings" and "just play good opening moves." All this does is rack up a lot of goose eggs at tournaments. 

Studying a few openings in depth greatly improves your abilities as a player, strategically, tactically, and thematically, and should be done from the very beginning of one's chess education. No one is saying you have to memorize hundreds of lines...but playing those lines out will hugely improve your understanding of what a chess game can be...a lot more than sitting on your hands "playing good opening moves," whatever those are :)

maskedbishop

As Black, play the Sicilian. You might as well, your chances with it are just as good or better than if you try the French (hard to play well) or the Caro-Kann (easy to get locked up). The Scandinavian is a waste of time and e5 just sets up a long slog to stop regretting that you played e5. 

Pick the Classical or Taimanov for starters. Don't worry about all the variations, just play the damn thing's first 10 or so moves, THEN you can "play good opening moves." And if White runs and hides with a closed Sicilian, you just won the conversation...now onto the game. 

I_Am_Second

Play Open Games

Ruy Lopez

Scotch

4 Knights, etc

Open games lead to more tactics, and at your level tactics are #1

I_Am_Second
hijodeluna wrote:

1.e4 Does NOT LEAD to more tactics.

1.e4  games and games played with any other opening moves like 1.d4  1.Nf3  1.c4, etc all have the potential for the same amount of tactics.  King pawn games don't dominate the potentia of tactics.  That is old rumor.   YOu can study and practice tactics while still playing any basic opening 1st move.

You are correct...e4 doesnt lead to more tactics, open games do.  of course all openings lead to tactics, but open games have the potential for more.  It is not a rumor.

plutonia
Estragon wrote:

At your level, spending your time "learning openings" is at best a complete waste, and it could actually hurt your progress.

It's fine to learn the names of the openings, and the first couple of moves which define them, but that's more than you really need.  Right now if you just follow the basic rules of development, you'll be fine.

 

You don't lose games because you don't know the latest grandmaster refinement in the Moscow Variation, or what 10th move transpositions are possible in the Nadjorf Sicilian.  You lose games because you overlook simple tactics that cost you a piece or get you mated, and you don't see the chances your opponent gives you.

That is a problem of tactics, not openings.

Experience is the best teacher.  Play slow games and save them, go over them later to find the mistakes.  They are not hard to find - try a move or two before you lost a piece or got mated.  Then try to recognize what you missed in the game so you don't lose the same way again.

Also, in between, Tactics Trainer and other puzzle challenges can be useful, too, but only if you can understand the tactical ideas you see and try to use that in your games.

 

Tactics don't come out of nowhere. You suffer tactics when you're in a worse position, your pieces are discoordinated, and you have no idea what to do strategically.

I think learning chess should be a fine balance, and this balance should include learning the general themes and plans of certain openings. I agree that memorizing moves is mostly a waste of time (at any level that is not titled), but studying the general strategies of the opening phase of the game is as important as studying tactics.

 

If I fall into a knight's fork, I don't think "wow, why didn't I see that? I should do more puzzles". I think "why did I allow so much activity to that knight, and why were my pieces unprotected? What did I do wrong positionally?"

claridad93
Hudlommen escribió:
claridad93 wrote:

"I would say that i play better open than closed games. My tactics are better than my understanding of pawn movement at least"


So whats your aim? Play game where you feel comfortable (open tactics games) or learn to play better in closed positions?

My aim is just to learn new openings. But i have no idea where to start.

Start by playing Kings Gambit is always a fun, classical and romantic way to play. First of all you will learn about material unbalance, tempi, attacking, weak squares, defense in just one opening. As black I would recomend 1...e5 and as black something classical too and Slav defense to d4

JGambit

It is interesting to see all the different idea's around something as simple as openings for a begineer. Once again it is like anything else, take what advice you want and do what you want.

Another complication to the debate, what the best player recomends is not always best for you. Also just because someone got to a certain rating one way does not mean thats the only or even fastest way. However logical people believe themselves to be, most things are conjecture. 

motzer2000

@btickler:

I have tried this kind of opening recently with good success. Do you have a similar idea for an approach when playing black ? I would appreciate it much.

sejwi001

try queens gambit reversed jes variation.I trapped many friends with it.I think i may suit you.

jlconn
JGambit wrote:

It is interesting to see all the different idea's around something as simple as openings for a begineer. Once again it is like anything else, take what advice you want and do what you want.

Another complication to the debate, what the best player recomends is not always best for you. Also just because someone got to a certain rating one way does not mean thats the only or even fastest way. However logical people believe themselves to be, most things are conjecture. 

EXCELLENT points.

DiogenesDue
motzer2000 wrote:

@btickler:

I have tried this kind of opening recently with good success. Do you have a similar idea for an approach when playing black ? I would appreciate it much.

Which kind of opening? :)

I only listed an exercise ("move 2 pawns into the center and go!"), but no specific opening (though some do fall into real openings, of course...the first board I listed is basically a Caro-Kann, etc.).  The reason that this exercise is perfect for someone just starting to get into real openings is that it will take you through a wide swath of opening ideas and complications/traps in a short time and let you sample them all.  

Then when you want to decide on a set of openings to be in your repertoire, you'll have a better idea of (a) what you like, and more importantly (b) what suits your actual playing style and natural leanings.

For example, a lot of new players see themselves wanting to play like Tal, wildly attacking and creative, etc. but in actuality, their playstyle and skillset is more suited to a slow buildup and clean positional play, eschewing complications, and end up playing something like the London system.  Chess players have a hard time being honest with themselves about stuff like this...I mean, everyone wants to think they play like Fischer or Tal, not Carlsen or Petrosian.

Do you really enjoy playing with 5-6 pieces en prise all the time?  Or do you prefer to feel in complete control of the situation?  Do you enjoy ripping the center wide open?  Do you actually thrive on making a position work when your space is cramped?  Would you rather have open diagonals for your bishops, or deftly insinuate your knights through a sea of pawns?  When you find yourself a pawn up do you want to simplify immediately to a won endgame, or do you start looking for a mating net?

These are the kinds of things you can work on finding out about yourself before you narrow your opening set down.

AdarshIsMe

silcilian dragon is the best

maskedbishop

>Studying openings is a waste of time because all your loses will occur due to tactics regardless of which part of the game they actually occur in.<

Terrible, dated, group-think advice, even more sullied by the "all your losses" determinism. 

maskedbishop

<At your level, spending your time "learning openings" is at best a complete waste, and it could actually hurt your progress.>

Another uninformed opinion that the poster read a thousand times somewhere else. They used to think the Earth was flat, too.