I need help from all "caro-kann"-ers.

Patzerook

Helo. I realy don't know if u faced that before .. but it's as kind of annoying line and may be called a gambit that white can force it once u pull out ur LS bishop in the advance variation. 

 I need your opinions about it . personally after playing this as black about 4-5 times .. i find it really advantageous for white.

Irontiger

However strange and counter-intuitive it might seem, the book move after 4.g4 is 4...Be7. The bishop will be trapped behind the pawns like in the French defense, but White has considerably weakened his kingside by g4. Keeeping the bishop on the kingside allows White to chase it.

If you want to play 4...Bg6 (?) then 5...h5 instead of ...h6 is an improvement compared to your line, but Black is still in trouble.

 

Even knowing this, that line (g4) is IMO the most dangerous in the advance variation, and has made countless victims.

Patzerook

I agree .. although it would look passive but Be7 would be a good rejection. But actually 5...h5 would lead the a weak position .. i've tried it .. white can answer by g5...

However in  many GM games with that g4 h4 h5 attack u can find that Bg6 h6 and Bh7 is the most common continuation but e6 !! is rarely played by white.

pfren

Black can keep the bishop "out", but then 4...Be4 5.f3 Bg6 is more accurate (the pawn on f3 denies white some easy moves, and weakens the king shelter). One idea is denying the g1 knight a natural developing square to f3, and (perhaps more important) denying the h1 rook a route to the queenside after an eventual h2-h4 and Rh1-h3.

But personally I feel 4...Bd7 is the right way to play: A French where white has an extra move (g4), which is way less than productive.

White can improve by playing 4.h4!? first, but this variation is just another beast...

chhhillout

I've played against this a few times. I like to leave the bishop on g6 after white pushes g4. Echoing Br-kh's comment, if he comes in with h4, h5 makes for some interesting play. It's by no means a quiet way to play, but come on. This is chess. We ought to liven it up a bit, right?

Patzerook

Infinitecomplexity- actually i know the variation u mentioned but now am just interested in the one i posted .. big difference between them.

Impfren- I agree .. but i do find bunch of GMs games where they retreat the LS bishop to g6 and h7.

chhhhillout- am sry but i didnt get ur point.

Expertise87

One important idea is 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.g4?! (I think overall this move is dubious no matter how Black responds so I have marked it as such. It is not a good try for advantage.) 4...Be4 5.f3 Bg6 6.h4 h5 7.e6 Qd6! and Black should have better chances now that White has ruined his structure. It is important not to take the pawn on e6. If White ever plays g5, the hole on f5 will be a beautiful square for a Knight or Bishop.

vikggg

This is a kind of opening trap that I play as white.  Bg6 is just plain bad. Retreat the bishop to d7 and play e6 and c5

vikggg
Expertise87

Yeah, if Black doesn't know anything about this opening he might take on e6 but in all lines if Black responds to e6 with Qd6 he has a good game. h5 is of course more accurate than h6 though. And 4...Be4 is quite important so that Qd6 will threaten checks on g3. As I said, the most accurate move-order to keep the bishop out is 4...Be4 5.f3 Bg6 6.h4 h5 7.e6 Qd6! with a small advantage to Black.

Expertise87

Yes, and pfren recommended 4...Bd7 as the main move I believe as was played by Anand. But 4...Be4 is certainly more in the spirit of the Caro-Kann and I'm sure not bringing my bishop back home if I don't have to!

nyLsel

This is the advance variation. I think it's a little tactics combined with strategy when this move was played. The idea is to weakens the Kingside pawn structure and to open Black's king. 

nyLsel

This type of advance is normal when you have a space advantage.

Irontiger
nyLsel wrote:

This type of advance is normal when you have a space advantage.

No it isn't. It creates many weaknesses, so playing it or not depends much of the position. The 'normal' way of using a space advantage is with piece play. Would you say the Alekhine defense is unsound (when its objective is precisely to induce White to push his pawns) ?

Expertise87

I thought it opens White's king, not Black's...

pfren
FirebrandX wrote:

And Anand got the move from the ICCF archives. I remember masters commentating on the game that the move was "brilliant" and "hand never been seen before", when actually it had been played several times on ICCF with a 100% success rate over the past 5 years.

I did not know that Tigran Vartanovich had played ICCF games!  Tongue Out

More so, back in 1948, when he tried the move for the first time.

Actually the move was played first time at an old 1919 game annotated by Reti (he was white).

netzach

Plagarism! Gotta watch out for it. :-)

http://www.chess.com/games/view?id=90911

Pulgarcita

Why not play 3...c5 to take advantage of the tempo white wastes with 3 e5 ?

Expertise87

You might want to re-read that...White plays a space-gaining move that responds to Blacks threat and you consider that to waste a tempo, but then Black moves the same pawn twice and this somehow does not waste a tempo?

Pulgarcita

3 e5 is an unecessary pawn move on White's part, since White can start to develop his pieces with a move like 3 Nc3. However, ...c5 is a typical central break which black would like to play anyway. Black usually cannot play ...c5 until all of his pieces are developed, but 3 e5 allows black to play 3..c5. Then, 4 dxc5 could be met by 4...Nc6, which prevents White from playing a subsequent b4 and targets White's pawn on e5.