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IM Andras Toth’s conflicting advice

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Avatar of dannyhume
dannyhume
Jun 25, 2022
0
#21
@nMsALpg,
Okay, so there are that many pawn structures in total, fine … Why is it impossible to get a straight answer as to what the simplest opening choices would be for an amateur to adopt to get exposure to all or as many of these structures as possible?

(Are there any chess coaches out there who want my $$$ ?!?)

@Optimissed,
Nothing wrong with someone using their lifelong skillset to earn a living. I am willing to exchange my hard-earned $$$ for these coaches’ expertise if they provide the service I am asking for, which also seems to be considered the proper way to play and learn chess. Yet it is insanely shocking to me that ZERO chess authors seemed to have approach publishing an amateur opening repertoire with the goal of exposure to a wide variety of structures in spite of frequently hearing how such an approach is the best for long-term learning.
Avatar of llama36
llama36
Jun 25, 2022
0
#22
dannyhume wrote:
@nMsALpg,
Okay, so there are that many pawn structures in total, fine … Why is it impossible to get a straight answer as to what the simplest opening choices would be for an amateur to adopt to get exposure to all or as many of these structures as possible?

(Are there any chess coaches out there who want my $$$ ?!?)

@Optimissed,
Nothing wrong with someone using their lifelong skillset to earn a living. I am willing to exchange my hard-earned $$$ for these coaches’ expertise if they provide the service I am asking for, which also seems to be considered the proper way to play and learn chess. Yet it is insanely shocking to me that ZERO chess authors seemed to have approach publishing an amateur opening repertoire with the goal of exposure to a wide variety of structures in spite of frequently hearing how such an approach is the best for long-term learning.

QGD will expose you to a lot (e.g. isolated queen pawn, hanging pawns, and the orthodox structure)
Spanish / Ruy Lopez has a variety of structures as well.

These are often recommended as long term openings that grow with the student, can be understood largely via pawn structure, and expose the student to a variety of fundamental structures.

Avatar of pfren
IM pfren
Jun 26, 2022
0
#23
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:
nMsALpg wrote:

 being worse all game long then executing a beginner level tactic / attack 

You just described every famous KID attacking game in history. My game vs. Toth was a textbook kings indian pawn storm, I don't give a flying hoot what the engine thinks of my moves.

 

That textbook certainly has quite a few torn pages.

After something simple like unpinning with 28.Kh1/Kf1 white has plenty of positional compensation for the piece (...at the very least) he's about to win.

Avatar of dannyhume
dannyhume
Jun 27, 2022
0
#24
@nMsALpg,
Thanks,

Yes QGD and Ruy Lopez have that reputation for long-term learning and exposure to many structures, and is what I’d like to start playing even though I’d be out of book by move 6 most of the time.

There seems to be plenty of introductory resources that target the amateur for the QGD, both conceptually and repertoire-wise.

Ruy Lopez and Open Sicilian are more challenging to find such material … some intro books out there, but nothing that is a club player repertoire that isn’t advanced (though I see the Caruana book seems targeted to club players, though expresses its goal to aim for similar structures). Guess I will have to dive into the Ruy and Open Sicilian for “fun” and aim for blunder prevention until I learn how to assess a position and calculate better.
Avatar of llama36
llama36
Jun 27, 2022
0
#25
dannyhume wrote:
@nMsALpg,
Thanks,

Yes QGD and Ruy Lopez have that reputation for long-term learning and exposure to many structures, and is what I’d like to start playing even though I’d be out of book by move 6 most of the time.

There seems to be plenty of introductory resources that target the amateur for the QGD, both conceptually and repertoire-wise.

Ruy Lopez and Open Sicilian are more challenging to find such material … some intro books out there, but nothing that is a club player repertoire that isn’t advanced (though I see the Caruana book seems targeted to club players, though expresses its goal to aim for similar structures). Guess I will have to dive into the Ruy and Open Sicilian for “fun” and aim for blunder prevention until I learn how to assess a position and calculate better.

I wish I could give you a simple way to play chess, but it's not an easy game tongue.png

The saving grace for all of us is that our similarly rated opponents struggle with the same things we do... so go ahead and play good openings, even if you don't fully understand them (no one fully understands them) and then after the game check with a database to see what the main opening moves were.

I usually have to play an opening for 1 year before I'm comfortable with it... or in other words getting positions where you're uncomfortable and unsure what to do doesn't mean you've done something wrong, because that's just part of the process.

 

Avatar of Clifton_Prince
Clifton_Prince
Jun 11, 2023
0
#26
llama36 wrote:

Nearly all openings do lead to one of these structures... There are authors that cover these structures. Here's an overview:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawn_structure

My gawd where have you been all my life! LOL ... thanks for that link, it's opened whole new worlds to me. thumbup

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Jun 11, 2023
0
#27
dannyhume wrote:
IM Andras Toth’s recommends mainline openings (Ruy, Open Sicilian) for amateurs in this video ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRgJ_rX9bCI&feature=youtu.be ) and rails against shortcut openings such as the London System.
But then he creates a Beginner’s Opening Repertoire course 1.e4 on Chessable in which he does exactly what he accuses amateurs of doing … taking shortcuts. For instance, you won’t see the Ruy Lopez or Open Sicilian in his course because that is “too much theory”.
Seriously?! Can someone help me understand?

Weak amateurs, intermediate amateurs, strong amateurs and beginners. That's four categories and not one.

Avatar of PawnTsunami
PawnTsunami
Jun 11, 2023
0
#28
dannyhume wrote:
Yeah, I was simply disappointed that he didn’t take on the task of attempting to create a “simpler” club player repertoire that still uses the Ruy Lopez and Open Sicilian, and teaches and applies the criteria he preaches for long term learning, without major shortcuts, and gives good exposure to the variety of pawn structures he says are necessary for long-term development.
I think this is something that chess authors should strongly consider, because I would say there is just about no book that I know of does this to my knowledge.
For instance, the famous mainline tabiyas of the Ruy Lopez begin on move 9 … rather than dive into what happens after move 9, for which there are plenty of books and before which amateur games often diverge anyway, why not create a sound repertoire that takes an amateur to the mainline tabiyas, while teaching and explaining sound general principles more comprehensively up until move 9, and then stop there?

The root of his beginner's course is the Italian and the Alapin. Neither of those is really a "shortcut".

Additionally, why would he use the Ruy when there were 3 courses on it, or using it, released 6-12 months before his course? That would be a bit silly from a business perspective.

Toth's recommendation is to avoid system openings (London, KIA, Torre/Trompowsky, Colle) as they tend to reinforce bad thinking habits in the opening. You can hardly say he is not holding to that in either of his beginner's courses.

Avatar of pleewo
pleewo
Jun 17, 2023
0
#29

Alapin is by no means a shortcut. He also makes it very fun and exciting 🔥