I mean... I'm sure it's not terrible. But the bishop can go to f4 or e3 meanwhile h6 burns a move on non development. It doesn't pose white any problems and gives him a little bit more to work with. As white I'd never be unhappy to see this move.
Innovation on move 5 of the 4. Qc2 variation of the Nimzo?
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SupremeOverlord wrote:
Good job, want a cookie?
Sure!
FirebrandX wrote:
I'd much rather castle. It continues development, contributes to king safety, and doesn't weaken the kingside like h6 does. Besides that, Bg5 isn't a typical choice white makes in this variation. It wouldn't be that big a deal if it did get played anyway.
After 5...0-0 6. a3 Bxc5 7. Nf3 b6 below are chess.com's game explorer stats (I have access to better databases but not that I can cut and paste in here like this) -- Bg5 may or may not be that big of a deal, but it's not uncommon. I'm not saying I'd play 5...h6 I'm just sort of surprised nobody has.
Here's what Stockfish came up with while I slept; not losing for Black but not especially good either:
(5...h6 Stockfish 4 64 0.52 (depth 35) 6.a3 Bxc5 7.Nf3 O-O 8.Bf4 Nc6 9.Rd1 Nh5 10.Bc1 Qc7 11.e3 Nf6 12.b3 b6 13.Bb2 Bb7 14.Bd3 a6 15.O-O Rac8 16.Ne4 Nxe4 17.Bxe4 Be7 18.Rfe1)
(5...h6 0.48 (depth 35) 6.Bf4 Nc6 7.Nf3 Qa5 8.Bd2 Qxc5 9.e3 Qb6 10.Be2 Be7 11.O-O d5 12.cxd5 exd5 13.Na4 Qc7 14.Rac1 O-O 15.Rfd1 Be6 16.Nc5 Qb6 17.Nxe6 fxe6)
(5...h6 0.46 (depth 34) 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bd2 Bxc5 8.e3 O-O 9.Be2 Nf6 10.Nf3 b6 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 d5 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qa4 Bd7 15.Qd1 Nc6 16.Bc3 Bf5 17.O-O Be4 18.Rc1 Qd6 19.a3 a5)
(5...h6 0.34 (depth 34) 6.e3 O-O 7.Nf3 Bxc5 8.Be2 b6 9.O-O Bb7 10.Rd1 a6 11.a3 Be7 12.e4 Qc7 13.h3 d6 14.Be3 Nbd7 15.Rac1 Rfc8 16.Nd2 a5 17.b3 Qb8 18.Qb1)
I've found another line starting 4 Qc2 c5 5. dxc4 where Black voluntarily gives up a tempo that GM Tiviakov has player several times.
I like the simple 6.Nf3 for white (6...Na6 7.g3). Just compare with the common variation 4.Qc2 0-0 5.Nf3 c5 6.dc5 Na6 7.g3.
Heh instead of 5...h6?! in the original line I gave also 5...a5?! is completely new according to chessbase. Both moves have some logic behind them so I'm surprised neither's been tried.
Sep 24, 2013
0
#9
That's not really giving up a tempo as White will have to move the e pawn again to effectively develop the Bc1
pfren wrote:
I like the simple 6.Nf3 for white (6...Na6 7.g3). Just compare with the common variation 4.Qc2 0-0 5.Nf3 c5 6.dc5 Na6 7.g3.
Would you be willing to play a couple unrated engines-on games where I play 5...h6 in one and 5...a5 in the other? I think these moves deserve at least a footnote in the theory books: this is how an IM beat them! Thanks for your consideration.
[COMMENT DELETED]
"Another (actually second cited by the author) significant feature (of 4. Qc2) is that, in contrast with the 4. e3 line, White has kept the c1-g5 diagonal open, and is thus able to play Bg5." -- GM Ivan Sokolov
"Bg5 isn't a typical choice white makes in this variation" -- Patzer with an Engine
You decide
Sep 25, 2013
0
#13
Are you referring to Sokolov's book from the 1990's? My guess is Mr. Morrow is using more recent databases to back his claim. Also, using the chess.com database to try to demonstrate anything is kind of poor argumentative skill on your part as the chess.com database is extremely limited and mostly outdated, while many higher-quality free databases are available.
Checking my database, White scores a measly 39.2% with the move 6.Bg5, while the only popular moves are, in order, 6.a3, 6.Bf4 and 6.Nf3 with White scoring 54.8%, 47.2% and 51.6% respectively. 6.Bg5 has been out of favor for years although GMs still essay it on occasion. The move 6...Na6 scores particularly well for Black.
According to the statistics and current literature, 6.Bg5 is nothing to worry about, so 6...h6 is more of a wasted move than anything else.
Sep 25, 2013
0
#14
blumzovich wrote:
"Another (actually second cited by the author) significant feature (of 4. Qc2) is that, in contrast with the 4. e3 line, White has kept the c1-g5 diagonal open, and is thus able to play Bg5." -- GM Ivan Sokolov
"Bg5 isn't a typical choice white makes in this variation" -- Patzer with an Engine
You decide
woah who pissed in your corn flakes this morning
Let's make it happen!
sisu wrote:
Actually Lg5 is very typical for this 4.Dc2 variation, FirebrandX. In fact it's one of the main points of playing 4.Dc2. You should have joined blumzovich's tournament to test out your ideas.
P.S. thanks for the analysis posted in this thread. I'll use it in my game with blumzovich
I've decided I'm never playing the line 4...c5 again after getting a position I dislike in one of my non-tournament games.
That may seem a strong reaction from one game but these are my first Nimzo games in decades and I'm formulating a repertoire, and about 4...0-0 instead Sokolov writes Black "gains the privilege of playing in true Nimzowitschian fashion...able to complete his development without having to decide on any sort of fixed pawn structure." For the same reason I've decided that, at least to kick start my Nimzo playing days, against both 4. e3 and 4. Nf3 I'm going to play the immediate 4...Bxc3?! to force a "true Nimzowitschian" structure before White gets any second thoughts.
In any event, with regard to my 5...h6?! innovation I believe 6. Nf3 to be a very slight inaccuracy due to Black being able to play 6...Na6 without worry of f3 after landing a knight on e4. Even though as pfren points out this is a tempo down compared to the line 4. Qc2 0-0 5. Nf3 c5 6. dxc5 Na6 7. g3, perhaps it is not an entirely wasted tempo, and that line appears to be quite playable for Black.
I will now remember this since I intend to play 4...0-0, and I'll get a bit of a feel for the line ahead of time albeit with ...h6?! thrown in. And before getting jumped on for contradicting pfren check out my language: "I (patzer) believe..." as opposed to "is"
FirebrandX wrote:
blumzovich wrote:
"Bg5 isn't a typical choice white makes in this variation" -- Patzer with an Engine
You decide
F--- you, man. Just because I usually see Bf4 in this line doesn't give you call to insult me like that. I have a better blitz rating than you do anway, so what does that make you if I'm just a patzer? Not to mention the fact that you glossed over the rest of my post just to nit-pick about that. My points about h6 are spot-on, and you know it.
Welcome to the Patzer club! 8 million strong and growing. I've been a member for 40 years. Tell us your story!
I think the Nf3/g3 plan is very effective. In the normal Nimzo variation (where ...h6 is substituted by the way more useful 0-0) Black has the time to create some structural damage to white by Na6-c5-e4-Nxc3, and still he has a few problems to solve. The typical Plan is Karpov's Ne8, where white has some annoying pressure by sacrifising one (or even two) pawns.
Watch this game, Black took the gift and after a few moves he was in zugzuang situation:
I think that Black CAN equalize by not employing Karpov's ...Ne8, but trying to swap the dark-squared bishops instead (won't enter any details, you have to work them out yourself). But after ...h6 instead of ...0-0, neither of these two plans is applicable, so Black is at least in some trouble.
Let's make it happen!
Is it really possible to find an innovation on such an early move in such a topical opening variation? Cuz I'm not finding anything in chessbase, maybe someone else has access to a more extensive database, perhaps with correspondence games.
Not saying it's best but at least it's not unreasonable, the point being to prevent Bg5 which can be annoying